Safe Speed Forums

That's your PRESENCE doing that, not your ACTION. Next.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

What I try to do on a slip road is adjust my speed and position to slot in front of or behind the vehicle already on the carriageway. If they move into L2 then it is a bonus but I do not rely on them getting out of my way.

True, but there is a subtle difference between ‘taking avoiding action’ and ‘changing speed / course’.

To me, the first is crash avoidance the second is a courteous response to a fellow road user.

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It's tricky doing nothing - you never know when you're finished

I disagree.

If I was in L1 and saw you coming down the slip road, then yes - I would move over (if it was safe to do so) to allow you to join. But you haven't 'forced' me to do that... That's just courtesy on my part...

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

Ah, I see the bait you’re using now

The difference between presence and action. That’s a tough one.

So you think that my intention to join another carriageway is not an action, eh?

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It's tricky doing nothing - you never know when you're finished

Clearly not - it's something that a driver does not have any 'instantaneous' control over.

The deadly serious end point is that our progress should be as unobtrusive as possible. If we're making others brake and swerve all over the place then something is massively wrong. So extrapolating from there to find the ideal we get:

No action I perform should cause another to alter course or speed.

(Subject to the possibility of improved wording.)

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Which bit do you disagree with? All of it or my use of the word 'forced'?

Of course I haven't FORCED you to move - you have right of way. But your road manners and my predictable intended action have combined to allow the system to work safely.

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It's tricky doing nothing - you never know when you're finished

The word 'forced'


I agree. I originally said "No manoevre I do should make another road-user have to alter their course or speed"

Yes, we can all hope for and expect courtesy from all road-users (ahh, utopia ) but I consider it bad driving for any of my actions to force/make another road-user to alter their course or speed.

Obviously, other than slowing down at a set of red traffic lights...

which may, or may not, be there to cause annoyance to aforementioned road-users...

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

I could instantly change my joining speed and therefore become unpredictable.



As an objective, I absolutely agree 100%.



Oh right, in other words you extrapolate ‘alter speed or course’ to mean: ‘making others brake and swerve all over the place’. I don’t think that’s quite the same thing.



That’s good. You should auction that one off for someone’s signature.

edited to add:

Sorry, I’m not giving this my full attention.

You appear to argue that there’s a distinct difference between my ‘presence’ on the road and any ‘action’ I make whilst driving. At the moment I need help in separating and defining them.

I argue that my presence, by its very existence, will cause other road users to alter speed or course, otherwise they would simply crash into me. You appear to agree with that.

However, you then seem to imply that my presence is an entirely passive existence. I would argue that for my very presence to be safe, I am constantly employing interlinked actions.

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It's tricky doing nothing - you never know when you're finished

And if you did your very unpredictability may cause others to change course or speed. So here one more reason not to ACT in such a way.



Very often in driving/riding we're trying to stay as far away from the bad outcome as reasonably possible.

And I don't know about you (although I have a shrewd guess), but my personal goal is perfection. I strive and I get closer. I'll never arrive, of course because perfection cannot be achieved, but I do have to know what direction to travel in.

This is one of those examples. Every time my action causes another to alter course or speed, I have missed my personal target and I try harder.



Yes, it would make a great sig for several someones I can think of.

More seriously, another version of it was No action I perform should FORCE another to alter course or speed.

The 'cause' might be a problem for certain sensible uses of the indicators.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Exactly, thats why I originally offered that it's better to have an objective of being totally predictable, rather than not to cause somone to alter course.



Well I suppose that's getting closer - but I still believe the only sensible way we can co-exist is for everyone to make allowances by changing their speed or direction for others. Having said that, I do understand exactly what you're getting at here, and secretly, it is one of my many objectives on the road.

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It's tricky doing nothing - you never know when you're finished

You said "No action I perform should be anything other than totally predictable to others".

I think I understand what you mean by this, but you also gave an example of some old fart pulling out on you. I agree this is (or can be) predictable behaviour, but it's also dangerous, discourteous and it's also caused you to change your course or speed, which, IMHO, is not good driving.


And we do, by their sheer presence...

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

Hell yes - it's most excellent to adjust your speed, course and road position to accomodate the needs of others. But that's us GIVING gifts. When someone pulls out in front of us he's STEALING our road space. These sorts of analogies are spot on. The transfer of 'ownership' of road space is similar, but there's a world of difference between 'given freely' and 'taken by force'.



Ahhh. So remind me why I've spent half the afternoon explaining it to you then?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I did. And I stand by it. It doesn't exclude the fact that others may need to make an adjustment for my presence.



Well, I didn't give the example, I replied to it. And it really depends on the situation.
If I know what he is intending to do, it is entirely reasonable for me to adjust my speed to make life better for all concerned. If he causes a bottom-clenching moment for me, it's not acceptable.

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It's tricky doing nothing - you never know when you're finished

But isn't it better for all concerned if my actions on the road don't inconvenience anyone?

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

Errrrr, because I don't think your objective is the best one to have?

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It's tricky doing nothing - you never know when you're finished

Sure - but why is courteous behaviour causing me inconvenience?

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It's tricky doing nothing - you never know when you're finished

I didn't say being courteous was inconvenient! I love to be considerate and courteous to other road-users!

I hate to have to brake, speed-up, change direction because some twerp can't be bothered to drive properly and not cause me to have to take these actions, as in pull out on me, for example...

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

Ahh. So where do you stand on stealing road space then?

And, more seriously, in this particular narrow area, what are the rules you believe in that govern 'transfer of road space ownership'.

Actually I really feel that I have got to the heart of it with this ownership analogy. The thieving and the gifts seem just right. Except I have yet to figure out how to go shopping for more.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

All I'm trying to explain here is that, sometimes, in the interest of good will and courtesy, we will change our speed and course to accomodate the reasonable behaviour of another road user.

I believe it is impossible to drive / ride around and never cause that effect as a result of our actions.

I assume, like me, you spend much of your time overtaking when out riding. If I need to brake, or cause anyone else to brake during my overtake, I have failed to make it a 'good' one. However, if I have slotted between two vehicles, it is not unreasonable that the vehicle behind will slowly drop back to a proper following distance.

I have pinched his road space, but it was so slick he really doesn't notice.

In effect, I have made him adjust to me. That is the extent to which I refer.

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It's tricky doing nothing - you never know when you're finished