Safe Speed Forums

You really love to put me on the spot don’t you? But that’s ok. It makes me think.



Yeah, I do it all the time – but the secret is – no one ever notices. (See reply above)



OK. My aim is to be unobtrusive. Whatever the traffic or road conditions, I will aim to deal with them with quiet efficiency. I am always trying to be in the right place at the right time.
Those, I guess, are my rules. I will gladly take road space, provided I’m unobtrusive. People will need to adjust to me but they will hardly notice it.



It’s a lovely concept – I think I shop every day!

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It's tricky doing nothing - you never know when you're finished

Hi "Grumpy Old Biker" you have just hit the nail on the head with the statement about slipping in between two vehicles unobtrusively this action is in the IAM training regime as a perfectly acceptable action also known as "Bunny Hopping" and works perfectly when done correctly and with skill as you say it does not inconvenience anyone.

Ad Infinitum

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"There But For The Grace of God Go I"

"He Who Ain,t Made Mistakes Ain,t Made Anything"

Spannernut

Cheers mate

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It's tricky doing nothing - you never know when you're finished

Yeah-ish - but you don't take roadspace from others without their permission do you? That's what stealing is. It's more like we acquire unowned or disputed road space by positioning, speed and bluff.

I'm getting whole tiers of new and clarified ideas out of this thing now.

Whenever I drive I'm acquiring, owning, guarding, negotiating for and relinquishing road space. I'm never stealing it from someone else, but as an experienced driver, when there are 'border disputes' I somehow always seem to have the upper hand. The easiest way to acquire road space is to be there first and to occupy it.

All the time I'm driving I'm driving in space that I have taken ownership of. The size of the space dictates my speed. When there's uncertainty the space shrinks and I slow down.

I'm delighted to give space away to anyone that needs it, if I can do so reasonably and safely. But I won't give it away needlessly. After all other folk tend not to make such good use of it. This is where 'bluff and cave' comes in handy - I don't 'look' as if I'm going to give space away needlessly. I don't dither. If someone is dithering, I'll make the required definition and grab the space.

I respect the space that has been acquired by others and don't steal it from them by encroaching upon it. If they give it to me, that's entirely different and I'll take it immediately with a friendly wave.

The space concerned is all around my vehicle - both to the sides and the rear as well as my 'safe braking zone' ahead.

So there you have it - forcing another vehicle to alter course or speed means that you are stealing their roadspace.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Have I missed something here???

I drove down my lane this evening with a car behind me and stopped to turn right into my drive. The car behind me had to change his course / speed or he'd have run into the back of me!

As far as I can tell, while I understand the sentiment of the original statement, it's impossible!

A bit like the "always being able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear". Nice idea but not good enough on blind single track roads.

It's your presence doing that. You're not 'stealing his roadspace' you're just doing what you need to do to travel.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Indeedy!

Fundamental principles of IAM driving; good, safe, progress whilst moving unobtrusively through traffic. Your actions should aid your progress, and not hinder other drivers movements.

I suppose that what one should do is both maintain your roadspace, but at the same time look out for - and protect - other drivers roadspace (i.e. someone overtakes on a stretch of SC A-road which you would consider is unwise to pass on; having been passed, you decelerate to allow a bigger gap for the passer to slip in to whether the passing car needs it or not).

Not sure if I'm making sense here (it's late), but I do agree with Paul's quote at the top of this post......

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Simon

I'm not so sure I'm in complete agreement with that statement.

'Stealing' is an emotive word. So is 'forcing'.

I still maintain that I am constantly 'pinching' other's road space, but it's done in such a way that few will be upset by it. Maybe it's because I am simply 'borrowing' it for a short time. They know it will be returned within a very short time.

Borrowing without asking is, I suppose, stealing.

And whilst people will need to change their speed because of my action or presence, it should never be a forced reaction. 'Forced' implies an immediate response is required to avoid conflict.

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It's tricky doing nothing - you never know when you're finished

Yeah. I'm struggling with the concept of 'action' and 'presence'.

It's your 'action' which caused your 'presence' to be where it was. If you hadn't taken that 'action', you wouldn't be there.

The only clarification is whether or not you 'forced' the following car into a reaction. Did he need to immediately react to avoid collision?
That's the only way I can make sense of this one.

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It's tricky doing nothing - you never know when you're finished

Paul I think you misread what I was meaning by "bunny hopping"

What I was getting at was that firstly as per "The Highway Code" you should leave room for another vehicle to be able to overtake and if necessary be able to pull in safely in the gap between 2 vehicles i.e. yours and the one in front.

This is not "forcing" another vehicle to take evasive action it is not as you say, taking / stealing their road space, because you should leave a gap between you and the vehicle in front to allow for any unforeseen circumstances (a better term would be an escape route for yourself I regard this as self preservation) .

Obviously very few drivers do this purely because they regard that road space as "theirs" and no one elses but I have to admit at times we are all guilty of this manner of driving at times

Again going back to (G-o-B,s comments ) about overtaking lets remember that M/Cycles have a lot higher power / weght ratio and can accelarate a lot faster and can also take up less space than a car in the same situation this is where I stand up for the statement about "bunny hopping"

To err is human and as one of my old bosses used to say (he was a wagon driver like me) no load was so important to warrant an accident and it is better to be 10 mins late in this world than 10 years early for the next one as he ain,t met anyone who came back and said it was better in the next world

Ad Infintum

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"There But For The Grace of God Go I"

"He Who Ain,t Made Mistakes Ain,t Made Anything"

Spannernut

Can we try analysing a right of way violation incident?

Let's make it a classic. A suburban 40mph single carriageway with a car ahead in a side road on the left planning a right turn. We're on a bike at 39.9mph approaching and watching intently.

Firm braking (not emergency braking) will bring us to a stop in about 50 yards.

If the car pulls out when it's still 100 yards off we need take no action. It's gone before we get there.

If the car pulls out when it's 10 yards away we're unlikely to be able to avoid hitting it. (Hopefully we'll be well prepared, and travelling more slowly, but that's entirely a differnet scenario.)

I'm interested in that 50 to 100 yard area where the pulling out transitions from being a fair use of road space to being a right of way violation.

How, exactly, do we know when a right of way violation has taken place?

I suggest that we know when another's road space is violated.

So I further suggest that the 'never force another driver to alter course or speed by your actions' thing actually underpins the entire principle of giving way.

And if it didn't then what exactly does 'give way' mean?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Now you’re talking..



That’s the bit I’m interested in too.

But first, please can you clarify your definitions of ‘action’ & ‘presence’.
In my response to Mole, I suggested that his ‘action’ had caused his presence to be where it was. If he hadn’t taken the action to turn right, he wouldn’t be there. So, I find it hard to see a clear distinction between the two. When does an action end and a presence begin?

And secondly, please can you define ‘force’.
Again, in my response to Mole, I suggested that ‘force’ meant that the following car had to take immediate action to avoid a collision. Is that a fair definition, or do you believe that even a slight lifting of the right foot constitutes ‘being forced’?

Right, getting back to your scenario, if Fred pulls out and we need to take immediate evasive action, is that the point when a right of way violation occurs? Before that, we might simply need to reduce speed slightly. Are we violated at that point? I think not.

More importantly, if we go around telling people that they should never be forced to change speed or course as a result of anyone’s actions, isn’t that condoning intolerance? Is it the first seeds of Road Rage?

Your mantra is certainly a good objective, but I think it’s too ambiguously rigid to be a rule.

Going back to 'stealing' road space - I quite liked my earlier description of borrowing space when overtaking. People willingly give up space when they know it will be returned shortly.

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It's tricky doing nothing - you never know when you're finished

Presence is about being on the road, going from A to B. It results from earlier decisions. You might call them 'route' decisions. 'Where am I going?'

Action is about live decisions about how you behave along the way. It's all in real time. You might call them driving decisions. "What do I do now?"

I can't see any real overlap. I suppose you might decide to vary your route, but then AFTER THAT you would have to make an 'action decision' to 'do that U turn' across four lanes of traffic.




'Force' or 'cause' are the greyest bits for me. I want to say 'cause', but I recognise it's probably going a bit too far. But then 'force' is probably not going far enough.

I certainly don't intend to make others lift off, even slightly. Anyway it seems fundamentally dangerous to do so. Suppose I do something that indicates that they need to lift off - and they don't? I presume that this indicates an immediate crisis. I don't fancy any driving plan that relies on others reacting to maintain safety.



Yeah, we MUST BE violated.

Firstly because (as above) if we fail to react we might be allowing a crisis to develop.

Secondly because you have to draw the line somewhere. If there's no violation with a little lift but there is with a big lift, we're really in a mess looking for the changeoverpoint. Surely the only possible changeoverpoint is the start of 'need-to-react'? As soon as we need to react our right of way has been violated.



You could say the same about many advanced techniques. Take courtesy. To give courtesy is devine, but to demand courtesy is divisive. Surely advanced type people are very used to staying of the 'giving' side of the equation? And forgiving the other side of the equation?



Yeah, borrowing, with permission, is cool. All the usual 'ownership' rules seem to apply well with the notable - and tragic - exception of going shopping. However I'm always up for a good forage. There doesn't seem to be any way to actually buy roadspace.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Actually perhaps there is. Superior power sometimes enables you to get to a conflict point before someone else and take possession of the space. Spend a little petrol, buy a little space.

"I've got 300 horses, and I'm going shopping".

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Ahh, well you should know better. I didn't go into detail on Baders background because I like typing



The quote is presented as if it is irrefutable, yet Bader nearly died adopting his own philosophy, in that respect was he a wise man or a fool?

Personally I am a wise man guided by another set of rules.

Thanks for the thorough answers.


Still can’t see the distinction.
If Fred decides to turn left from the side road and does so when we are 100 yards away, his action has not affected us at all. He now becomes a presence. But instead of accelerating up to 40mph, he decides he is more comfortable at 35mph and we are forced to slow down. Are you saying that’s ok because he’s a presence? I would argue that we had to eventually react as a result of his initial action to come out. If he had waited, we’d be unaffected.



Another scenario.
You’re driving along on a NSL single carriageway. The traffic is fairly heavy and moving at about 50mph. You are following the vehicle in front at a safe (2 sec) distance.
In your mirrors you spot me making overtakes. Eventually, I’m behind you. What do you do?

Let’s assume you do nothing and I overtake you and slot in front. I’m now following the vehicle in front of me by about 1 sec. You are following me by 1 sec. If I can make an immediate overtake, I’ve borrowed your space for a matter of seconds and then I’m gone. If I decide a further overtake is not on, I will increase my following distance and I will force you to do the same. My action has robbed you of road space and my riding plan relies on you reacting to maintain safety.

It seems that your arguments would condemn my actions as unsafe. If it was an unsafe act, I wouldn’t do it.
I can’t see how anything other than a Utopian world could sustain your mantra.



That is all very true, although I have a very real fear of courteous people. Many will extend courtesy to someone without considering how it may affect others. I think they call it ‘misplaced courtesy’.



I’m really into this ownership concept now, but what’s ‘shopping’, apart from:-

How can we even begin to barter for space?

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It's tricky doing nothing - you never know when you're finished

I think you have blown a couple of little holes in the definitions, but hopefully not the concept. I'm going to think about it.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

How you getting on?

The objective of not forcing anyone to react to our actions IS a good concept, but probably a poor principle to accept as the ultimate outcome of all we do.

During my ‘overtake’ scenario, when I slip in front of you it is important to me that I don’t use my brakes, and neither should I cause you to brake. After that, when I need to adjust, I’m happy to ‘force’ you to do the same.

So, I use your mantra initially, but not to the exclusion of necessity. The most important thing is that everything I do is expected and predictable by you. No surprises.

Further to that, I should add that I ‘force’ or ‘manipulate’ other road users frequently. To be a safe biker requires a degree of domination or forcefulness. I need people to see me, to respect my ‘safety bubble’ and to comply with my needs. Needless to say, this manipulation is subtle but resolute.

And this leads me to consider whether bikers have a few unique or different ‘rules’ to car drivers. Obviously, riding a bike requires a different technique but also the objectives can be very different.

We share the roads but we use them differently.

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It's tricky doing nothing - you never know when you're finished

I understand your logic and basic principles that you apply when riding your bike,but how do you deal with the car driver who has the same mentality as yourself but from a car drivers,prospective how do you deal with this or have you never came across a car driver with the same style and principles as you.
Stephen

I've been a bit distracted getting ready for a trip south. Sorry. I'm sorry for me too, because I think this stuff is really interesting.

I agree about 'manipulating' others - I do it all the time - but I do it by dominating the space that they WILL occupy, not the space that they ARE occupying.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety