Safe Speed Forums

Ridiculous.

That's like saying we don't need an army because we shouldn't go to war (for example).

Prepare for the worst and hope for the best!

For the record btw, I've rarely skidded, but when I have I've instinctively reacted, I'm happy to say.

I had the chance to practice this on one of my training days (had to turn off all the electronic gizmos first, obviously). Because of the speeds involved not only is it sudden but it's extremely violent and, like you say, damned hard to catch. Not something you ever want to have happen to you out in traffic.

I think I agree with both of you. You should aim to drive within the available grip at all times on public roads, and if you exceed this it implies that you have made a mistake. But people do make mistakes, and finding yourself on unexpectedly slippery road is a reasonably forseeable mistake, and drivers should plan for this contingency.

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Peter Humphries (and a green V8S)

surely this is the point of 4ws..... if tuned correctly it makes the response of the car more linear (i.e. predictable) up to and beyond the usual limit.... of course when it runs out you're that much deeper in the poo!

(much like esp really)

Skid pan was good training.. you can never be sure of serious black ice, greasy road after dry spell where friction on road ist a bit uneven . One tyre ist on the slippery patch und rest of car ist on "normal" condition. You can feel this on high altitude road in particular It does not help that grit ist mix with sugarbeet or something.. und it just does not penetrate the sheet of ice. I have a nasty feeling that this will be part of the equation in the Rhyl tragedy last year. Too many incidents recorded before the chap lost it und ploughed into the cyclists. The worn treads were illegal.... this would not have caused this skid. It ist of course very possible that the driver hit the ice und simply panicked. Too many do not know what to do if they discern even the slightest loss of traction.

But basically skid ist as lieber von does comment. (I only tease him on PH I think he like me really.. He ist always lovely und polite to me anyway - und say I do make him smile und we see eye to eye on many issues as well. He ist a mere man.. he like to have last word )

But skid usually occur as part of driver's actions. Ist usually altering course or speed far too harshly - which lead to loss of control.

Tyre lose normal grip on road - it become less than the forces acting on the vehicle. These forces are brake, throttle, clutch, steering wheel .. und you should not be compromising these forces in base terms.

Ist to do with COAST of course We always come back to COAST.

During the C und O of the system (which I note lieber IG post in entirety again ) - you watch out for the obvious:

rain, white snow, white frosts, white und visible ice.

mud, damp leaves, oil slick, which can cause slippery surface. As ppedestrian you find certain type of sole of shoe slip on these

cold spots.. micro-climate .. in shady areas or near fresh water - und usually on the hills

dry und loose dust on road surface..

rain after the dry spell

worn und polished road surfaces

concrete road surfaces - they hold water und when it freeze ist a real life skid pan of sheet black ice

cobbled roads.. we have lots of those on continent und these are really nasty in the rain und slush

und road surface on a bridge can be subject ot icy cold snap.

You watch out for these - especially when approaching a corner.. as this ist where typically - the less experienced numpty or thug in the stolen car will lose it und take out the innocent tootling along.

So ist about evaluating.. anticipating .. planning with the S und T if you like

You adjust speed according to the condition und create the space for manoeuvre und stopping distance to match the road condition You need double stopping distance in bad conditions at least..

Use higher gear to avoid wheel spin und try to keep the steering smooth. If you feel a "pull" anywhere - you can then steer into to correct. Though .. if you have COASTed correctly you should not really feel this

Und we also come back to POWER or rather the Rubber of this.

checking tyre pressure und treads..regularly

servicing car to ensure brake und suspension are sound.


In course I did many year ago.. had to deliberately place the car into skid und make the errors deliberately. Ist harder to do than you think to do it on purpose. I see what IG mean ...


If skid cause by excess speed .. -remove foot from throttle und steer to correct. Depend on whether car has traction control as to whether you depress the clutch as well und steer to correct in the dierction of the car's skid.

If skid caused by harsh hit on brakes - und cause wheel to lock up...(ist the most common error.. und usually end up with hitting the thing you braked to avoid .. relax the pressure on the brake und let wheel unlock to restore surgace grip und take directional control

If car has ABS - please read your vehicle's manufacturer's hand book

hardly any bloke read them

It can be caused by coarse steering - breaking tyre grip.. so I was taught to reduce speed immediately but as smoothly as possible und correct the steer. Ist difficult to explain .. ist one of these Kinetic learns.

Und then if road ist slippy - if not ABS .. cadence or rhythmic braking help und be sure to know if car has ABS, traction control.. front or rear wheel drive und please read the instructions re all in-car toys.

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
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(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

Yeah.

OK.

Von posts stuff on ADUK that usually I think is excellent practice, but generally I don't use in normal driving. I remember asking what - or more to the point - how BGOL avoidance is done in practice. He was very clear, concise, and made it easy to understand. Do I separate braking and gear changing in normal driving? Err. Not always as he suggests. But at least I now understand the mechanics of it.

I do, however, maintain that if you've got a "skid situation" on a normal, dry road then you have failed to negotiate or anticipate the prevailing road / traffic conditions. Or, of course, you may be - say - Dickie Meaden and Harrison Metcalfe caning a 550 & 599GTB along twisty Tuscan roads where power-on oversteer is de rigeur

Merry Christmas to all !!!!

Simon

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Simon

I've wrestled with this issue for a long time now and seen merit in both arguments. Now, finally, your analogy makes it all clear.

On the one hand it is indeed true that not having an army will completely prevent you from starting a war; but on the other hand not having an army may well encourage another country to start a war with you.

This business of learning to correct slides is just the same. If you don't have the "army" of skills available then you clearly aren't going to go off and pick a fight with your nearest wet roundabout, but by the same token that lack of skills may leave you unprepared for the situation where the roundabout picks a fight with you, eg if it has been soaked in diesel.

So whether or not it is right to learn these skills surely depends on your prevailing mental attitude. If you are something of a motoring warmonger then it is perhaps best for your own good that you lack the confidence and skills to deal with a bit of "tally ho" oversteer; but if you have a level head on your shoulders - if you learn your motoring karate moves with self-defence strictly all you have in mind, then it seems like a sensible move.

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

Beautifully put JT. I've been aware of that for some time, but never expressed it so clearly. But there's still another dimension. Here are some of my words from earlier in the thread:



Now, it really isn't a simple question of having an army or not. First of all there's the size of the army; and of course the individual's subjective assessment of the strength of his own army.

And we also have to consider the possibility that having an army might sometimes make people more warmongerish.

And this is in the real world where everyone exists somewhere on the scale of totally irresponsible to amazingly responsible. So there also exists the possibility that getting the skills moves people just a little bit along the scale in the wrong direction. It'd definitely be wrong to look at this in absolute black and white terms - everything is shiftable shades of grey.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

BOING!

Mrs TheBoy had two very hairy moments in her mk1 MX5 yesterday (on one occasion leaving the road) on black ice. The MX5 is very forgiving on dry roads but 'floaty' on icy ones.

Understandably this has knocked her confidence somewhat, and I think my breezy assurances and manly driving advice aren't helping.

Obviously my main worry is that she'll crash, but I'm also worried she'll sell the lovely MX5 and get something more sensible

So contemplating getting us a his'n'hers skidpan course as an extra xmas pressie. Before anyone says "you old romantic", she's already going to do quite well for pressies.....

Anyone got any positive or negative feedback about:

http://www.drivetechltd.co.uk/skidpan.htm

I appreciate the above (old) comments about finding a nice deserted frosty car park, but this would involve getting Mrs TheBoy out of bed early, which is not for the faint-hearted...

I don't know about the specific skid pan (there might be better) but...

DO IT, DO IT, DO IT!

I rate ordinary cars on real slippery skid pans as far far ahead of funny cradles and funny rear wheel steer cars.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

absolutely.

I took a course in a cradle car about 10 years ago. The instructor pressing the buttons said 'now this is what happens in a real wheel drive car', pressing the button to reduce rear grip. I banged down the clutch to catch out the instructor and of course the condition persisted. I pointed out that it was now a no wheel drive car and he was talking rubbish. Feeble, really feeble.

But it's worse than even that, really. You just can't get the throttle control balance stuff with the cradle cars, nor can you learn to feel the early warning signs of loss of grip in the steering.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

i've been lucky enough to have the chance to drive a high performance 2 seater recently, wide wide low profile tyres, rear wheel driver, big heavy front engine.

on the low (very) grip surface of course couldn't help but give it a slide or two... and being used to saloon cars, mostly front wheel drive.... it did some really really weird things.... and seemed to settle at some strange slip angles.... confused the heck out of me.
i cant really explain it, tyres? weight distribution? fun mind.

Let me have a go and I'll tell you all about it...

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

they made me give it back

More years ago than I care to remember I was in the car of a then girlfriend. The car was a Ford Cortina Mark II GT E, with twin Webber carbs. God, that car was a beauty! (So was she, but that's another story!)

She had passed her Advanced Driving test some years before and we were on a snow covered road. She had slowed down to about 15 mph as she judged that speed to be about the safest for the very severe conditions. Even at that speed the car started to go into a skid. She carefully and skilfully dealt with the situation and we came to a safe stop.

A couple of days later I was with a "Mr Expert" driver. He was driving on the same road, within the legal speed limit, but too fast for the conditions. He went into a skid and panicked, slamming the brakes on and tugging and pulling at the wheel! The car crashed through a fence and narrowly missed -through luck, not judgement- going into an ice covered pool.

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www.thatsnews.org.uk / www.thatsnews.blogspot.com / http://thatsmotoring.blogspot.com/

In my Legacy (rear-biassed 4wd) this seems to make things worse since lifting off suddenly causes snap oversteer.

I find a very gentle lift can restore grip, or failing that steer where you want to go and apply more power, since this seems to push the 4wd bias closer to a 50/50 split. Then you just have to deal with the fact that one end of the car will grip first and it's totally random. In either case gently lifting at this point brings it back under control.

(I make no claim to be an advanced driver, it's just what happens to work in my car, if someone can explain why, I'd love to hear)

not sure if we ever answered that question properly.

advice to non expert drivers really depends on how they got into the oversteer situation.... and then you have to ask whether they know how they got into it to start with!

I always figured lifting off only worked with power-on oversteer.

Anyway, I'll find out early next year, because I've bought two vouchers for the skidpan course.

Naturally I shall resussitate this thread again at that point to share my experience.

power on oversteer in RWD presumeably.. maybe 4x4