Safe Speed Forums

Just to add to this. Bike insurance was renewed at the begining of October, but since the bike in question was actually SORN at the time the docs weren't checked. Recently when the bike was re MOT'd ready to be put back on the road, the realisation came that the insurance company had MISTYPED the registration mark!!

Yes of course you should check your docs, but if new docs came through wrong, even if you phoned the insurer immediately, how long before it would show on the database?!

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

IANAL, so this is my best guess:

If you have a dictation machine handy (e.g. if your mobile phone can perform this function) ensure the entire conversation is recorded.

If they attempt to seize the vehicle, tell them that Subsection 3 of Section 165A of the Road Traffic Act 1988 empowers them to seize the vehicle if

1. a constable in uniform requires, under section 165, a person to produce evidence that a motor vehicle is not or was not being driven in contravention of section 143,
2. the person fails to produce such evidence, and
3. the constable has reasonable grounds for believing that the vehicle is or was being so driven.

and that you have produced the evidence required by 3(b) and so he has no power of seizure. If he argues that the database says you're not insured, tell him that he cannot rely on the database alone, that you have produced a certificate of insurance for the vehicle, which sheds doubt on the accuracy of the database, and therefore (even if he considers the certificate does not satisfy the requirement of 3(b)) he has no reasonable grounds for believing the vehicle is uninsured and so 3(c) is not met and he has no power of seizure.

If he still persists, I suspect you could take his name and collar number, ensure that he knows he is taking the vehicle without your consent, then issue him with a verbal NIP for the unlawful taking of a motor vehicle without consent of the owner. As soon as possible thereafter report the officer to the PCC, the theft to your insurance company - and standby for a humdinger of a legal battle!

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Will

I reckon the above course of action will guarantee the police officer looking for any little issue he can get you for (then or later).

The main problem is that automated systems do not allow for the human foibles of mistyping or other errors and are believed without question. Thus it is incumbent upon the human element in the system (i.e. the police officer) to use a bit of discretion and sense. This seems sorely lacking in this case.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Also, it doesn't say that the evidence has to be a certificate. So presumably evidence at the roadside could include phoning the insurance company and getting them to confirm insurance details, followed by producing the certificate later. The law does not seem to allow the officer power to pick and choose which evidence he wants.

The evidence required is laid down by subsection 9. which says:
So, if you produce your certificate of insurance the police cannot seize the vehicle on insurance grounds.


It possibly would - but I'm struggling to think of an alternative that isn't going to cost you your vehicle. Don't forget that you're recording the entire proceedings and so might have a valid complaint against the officer concerned should he throw the rattle out of the pram. At the very least, I'd think the press would have some interest once the recording was no longer sub judice.

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Will

It's interesting that it is alleged that he signed a destruction authorisation, but he says he didn't.
Have the towing company falsified such a document? One would not be surprised if they did so AFTER crushing the car. If that is the case of what crime would they be guilty? Criminal Damage, maybe, or fraud, or some form of theft.
This entire episode is a complete disgrace for which those responsible must be called to account publicly. Wanton destruction of someone's property without authority is just not acceptable.
Maybe we should all help with the cost of his legal action. I would be happy to chip in with a tenner.

Me too

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Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

It'd certainly be worth a go.

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

So how do we, that's we Forum Members, contact him to offer our support and assistance?

We've been crushing chuckaways and unisnured chavmobiles for almost 2 years up here. We work with an insurance company's sponsorship on this. (oooh.. they'lll think we make a few bob outa this.. .. we think it helps keep our bobbies on beat )

We target the cars which are more than likely to be this genre. Unfortunately, this was an old vehicle and possibly attracted attention because of this.

In ideal world (and I think we did manage to drop a right clanger here once .. we tightened up - apologised and made appropriate ex gratia compo and thus maintained a fair PR job ) .. but .. once the document had been produced at the station and then verified by way of a few other checks - including contact with the insurers.. car is made ready for release and fee waived.

99% of time.. bona fide cop though and the reason why we crush?

We are back to the same vicious circle if we send back to auction of the £60 unroadworthy defective and the chav driver from hell.

In fairness to GMP .. they have a very serious problem keeping tracks of all the pool throwaways on their patch. One of the blackest spots in UK for this kind of unlicenced chav-mobile caper.

Not excusing them.. stay of execution should have been placed on that car - but easy to see how mistakes will happen given high volume of chavmobiles getting seized.. and these are only tip of the proverbial iceberg.

As for the "authority to destroy" this car.. obviously this will feature in any investigation and no doubt appropriate action taken if found to be "not in order"

I do feel sorry for the gentleman in this case and sincerely hope my colleagues down in Manchester/Bolton can resolve this with him with the best outcome.

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

I just have an awful feeling that when he decided not to pay the fee, they probably shoved a form under his nose, and said "sign here if you are not paying to take the car away!" and in his ire at having his car "kidnapped", signed without looking to see just what it was.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

So it's only acceptable to crush a car that is unroadworthy. Otherwise it is wasteful to crush a good car no matter the circumstances?

Most of these cars are unroadworthy. We rarely find fairly young cars without insurance. Usually the decent cars which we take off the road as "suspiciously without insurance" are usually cleared with certificate and a verification check with insurers or proof of payment which has to fall at the time when towed off.. else we charge the release fees.

Note .. if the person takes out insurance after the seizure of the vehicle.. and pays the release fee - we do not crush the car. We do, however, prosecute for not being insured at the time though.

It's called applying the law fairly and attempting to help the law right the wrong for which it was established in the first place.

If on the off chance a new car happens to be without insurance .. more than likely to attract fair auction price and thus be out of budget for the chav brigade. We try to break the seriously dangerous cycle of the throwaway defective

However.. Mad Doc tells me he has seen a story in the MEN which shows a fairly new 4x4 being crushed because its owner was observed fly tipping from it. I am sure he will get around to posting this one up sooner or later.

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

This is a blanket case of total ineptitude and incompetence not by the police but by the total inadequacy of a system that they have to use, and is by default totally inaccurate, they can only use what resources they are given and given the fact that for the majority of their working day they have to deal with all manner of spurious excuses and lies, they are bound to be somewhat sceptical but this is no defence for the poor bloke who lost his car to a bunch of petty minded idividuals and jobsworths who can,t even take the time to phone the insurers to confirm the vehicle is covered when his wife has been and shown insurance docs. and then tell these idiots at the compound they have made a mistake and give the owner his car back asap without any costs to the owner !!!!!!!
Lets face facts if all debacles like this was down to the government they would be out of office pronto as the public would get rid of them but they do the spurious thing of giving it to "private enterprise" so it is the old story of "it ain,t me guv it is him" more commonly known as "passing the buck"!!!!!
There is nothing wrong with taking uninsured / unroadworthy vehicles off the road but in situations like this then EVERYONE who is involved in this debacle should be made to pay for their wrong actions including expenses this guy has incurred and not charging him over £100.00 for thr "privilege" of removing a fully insured vehicle from him but also reimbursing ALL his costs as the thing that seems to missing here is that "He was totally legal" when the car was impounded so there should be NO PAYMENT REQUIRED to get his car back.

The Environmental Protection Act 1990 as amended makes it possible to seek a forfiture order in respect of a vehicle from which controlled waste (the technical term for flytipping) was deposited.

Having been out with the boys in blue and stopped the typical flytipper although not in the act of tipping we sought his waste carriers licence - had not got one. His waste transfer note - had not got one of those either so where was he taking the waste. BiB seek proof of idenity did not know where he lived two addresses given never been heard of at either so he gets arrested. After an hour in cells decides he does know where he lives and proof duly obtained and we can issued him with two £300 fixed penalties for the waste offences.

Lots of people like him out there ducking and diving according to the arresting officer "we get this all the time" Just think what people like him are going to do if you are unfortunate enough to have then bump into you. so I guess we will have to live with a system which is not 100% perfect, open to human error and rely on thse who opperate and use it to act fairly and if mistakes are made to correct them quickly and fairly and not worry too much about the PR[/quote]

Not quite sure what this means. If I put some rubbish in my car and drive round with it, are you saying that I can be fined £300 for it?

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Wake me up when the revolution starts
STOP the Toll Tax http://www.traveltax.org.uk

If you carry someone else's waste for payment as part of a business then you must have a waste carriers licence from the Environment Agency. You can carry your own business waste unless you are a builder or demolition contractor when you must have a waste carriers licence. So if you own a business and take your business waste to a licensed tip site no problem. If you carry household waste from your own home to the local tip again no problem.

If you carry commercial waste then you must have a written description of the waste so that anyone coming into contact with it knows how to handle it safely and to prove that you have discharged your duty of care by taking it to a licenced tip site.

This is to catch the Herberts who drive around housing estates see some rubbish in someones fromt garden and offer to take it away cash in hand no paperwork given. Guess where that type of waste ends up

The reason I asked this was that you said "stopped the typical flytipper although not in the act of tipping".

The point I was making was suppose I stick my old fridge in the car, or some old bricks from DIY - can I then be stopped and fined becaused someone thinks I might be a fly tipper?

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Wake me up when the revolution starts
STOP the Toll Tax http://www.traveltax.org.uk

When they start fining you for putting the wrong waste in the re-cycle bin, then charge you per kg for non-recyclable waste, the fly-tipping will increase several-hundred fold. If you go out at 1-00 in the morning, down a narrow country lane and dump a couple of black sacks in a ditch, how are you ever going to get caught? Tens of thousands will do this.
Once again, it's our wonderful gov't operating their gobs before engaging their brains (if they have any to engage).
Back to the guy whose car was crushed; how do we offer our support to him?

Graeme wrote

The reason I asked this was that you said "stopped the typical flytipper although not in the act of tipping".

The point I was making was suppose I stick my old fridge in the car, or some old bricks from DIY - can I then be stopped and fined becaused someone thinks I might be a fly tipper?

The typical unlicensed carrier is more likely to drive a Transit type pick up and be carrying mixed waste collected from householders who do not know any better. Unless you are caught dumping your fridge in a country lane you are unlikely to be bothered on your way to the Council tip. Unlike those who run the speed cameras those stopped are asked questions and folk who provide honest answers are very soon on their way. Those who genuinely don't know get free words of advice.

As for Coopermans comment "If you go out at 1-00 in the morning, down a narrow country lane and dump a couple of black sacks in a ditch, how are you ever going to get caught?" You would be surprised how many people leave items which enable them to be traced in their waste!