Safe Speed Forums

When the bus enters the roundabout, the driver only has a mirror view of the cycle behind.
The cyclist however, has a PERFECT VIEW of the bus, and can see clearly it's intended course from the indicator.

This is the exit position for them both, onto the roundabout.


The give way line only requires the bus to give way to traffic from the right - but not behind and to the right - and the bus clearly is well onto the roundabout before the cycle appears in the frame.

I have crudely animated several screen grabs to show the progress of both.


The sequence is not unlike a motorway or DC sliproad - the bus is attempting to join the right hand lane on the roundabout, while the cyclist seems intent on making progress and passing the bus.
If this was on a DC or motorway, would you condone any vehicle attempting to baulk a vehicle on the sliproad?

I feel the cyclist seems to have adopted an attitude of "Right of way trumps common sense any day" which is simply not a good approach to road use anywhere - but especially on a busy city centre junction with a bus!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

One of the main "culprits" in all this is the red car in front of the bus. It is moving at about the same speed as the cyclist and not keeping up with the car in front of it, thus hindering the bus from filling the gap cleanly. Had the red car been travelling at a sensible speed (i.e.the same speed as the car it was following), then I believe the bus would have been able to filter in without obstructing the cyclist's progress (even though the cyclist should be prepared to slow anyway). I see quite a few instances where poor attempts to keep up with the rest of the traffic's flow, cause un-necessary problems for following vehicles to filter in cleanly.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

To be fair to the driver of the Red car, S/He may not have been familiar with the route. The lane makings (for that lane) are ambiguous and somebody who was not familiar with the route may well have found the layout confusing and therefore might have wished to take it slowly!

Nice animation though! And yes, it makes it even more clear just what a Prat Mr Cyclist was!

A "secondery" prosecution is definitly required in this case...

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"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

You cannot tell that the red car is going particularly slowly; furthermore, the white minivan to its right isn't gaining ground on it.
The bus driver is cleanly able to filter in without any problems; the cyclist deliberately chose to fill what was obviously going to be a closed gap, in spite of the fact the bus had clearly indicated its intention.
That cyclist was obviously going for it.


I also see the video from the foolhardy and totally belligerent (in terms of riding style) magnatom was shown on the BBC video article. Remember, that particular roundabout was three lanes wide and he chose to stretch his line (even though there is clearly other traffic on the roundabout), and slowed late for the truck for what I believe to be for dramatic effect.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Wrong: also on Pistonheads.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topi ... us+v+Cycle

As an aside.. I'm a bit confused by this layout.

Whats with the mini cycle give way out of the bus lane? A cyclist is intended to be in the bus lane, but not use the bus lane give way line.. instead has to giveway to join traffic in the left hand traffic lane (potentially with his arse still in the bus lane ?), or is that only if he wants to use the ASL and get into one of the other traffic lanes.

I'm not sure I follow the logic stated a while ago that the bus lane give way only applies to the bus giving way to vehicles on the roundabout but not the traffic entering from the immediate right ? If the lights are green and the traffic has a clear run onto the roundabout surely the bus has to give way to them ?

I'm in two minds about bus gates, on the one hand an extra stop line & set of lights for the bus is unambiguous but a little painful for both cars & buses (and both a little uneccesary & just plain confusing on a bike if it doesn't change in your favour). A give way line like this onto a traffic light controlled junction is a bit of a mixed message, presumeably the bus should be waiting there until the light phasing allows a suitable gap for them to pull into (maybe designed in to the phasing or triggered), so it's the same as option 1 in all but hardware (& cost?!).
I've also seen bus lanes terminating with or without giveways.....

So I'm confused... just saying

The way I would treat it if encountered would be:
a) if lights are RED, use, then exit the bus lane onto the roundabout ASAP... giving way to traffic on the roundabout.
b) if lights are GREEN, try and use the live lanes and not the bus lane, because...
c) you could end up stuck in the bus lane, as trying to exit into moving traffic in lane 1 via that Give Way line would be barmy!

HOWEVER....
There are THREE traffic lanes controlled by the lights.
Lane 1 is marked as a lane for vehicles turning LEFT off the roundabout while lanes 2 & 3 are for straight ahead - as can be seen in this view.


It looks clear to me that the cyclist exited from lane 1 - but continued RIGHT onto the roundabout and tried to beat the bus before it made it's clearly signalled move!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

I think the aim is to allow the cyclists to chose which lane they prefer and when leaving the bus lane to do so at an angle so they are not at right angles to both lane (the bus lane that they are leaving and the L1 of the main carriageway), and so to allow for a smooth join into the main carriageway when appropriate. It is not very clear an is open to interpretation.Giving way to vehicles on the right has been around for many years and of they expect motorists to do so then further signs are necessary, to say the least!
I reckon you are right with your next comment, that the lights will favour the bus (who can typically activate them in their favour anyway, and so ensure the ability to pull out when only left over traffic from the previous lights phase will happen.
Although the bus is pulling out into a green current phase, for the main carriageway, so that might be an 'end light phase' perhaps ?
Certainly if everyone is expecting the bus to give way, might the cyclist have been in the bus drivers blind spot ?
It would look like the bus ought to give way, and in many ways he is pulling into a suitable place except for the bike.
So did the bus driver who may not have seen the bike, accidentally cause this initial 'conflict' ?
If the bus driver then sees him, he sees is behaviour as both aggressive and foolhardy.
The the cyclist who is now already aggrieved (as others have said - Mistake 1) is miffed for not being yielded to and then (Mistake 2 by the bike at least) then retaliates by going into conflict with the bus.

The bus, if he saw the cyclist may have assumed (bad move too), that the cyclist would simply scoot into his near-side (to pavement.... the passenger side) and all would be well. I cannot see why the cyclist wanted to be in the middle of that lane, unless he was heading for the left section of the central lane to go further round the roundabout.
It's a shame we cannot see the footage between this section and the next when the cyclist is on the n/s of the buss but then (madly) goes into the buses path and to the centre of that lane! A most dangerous and foolhardy move.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

Bus driver cuts up a cyclist and it's the cyclist's fault, brilliant.

If I was in the cyclist's position I probably would've yielded, but may well have had words with the bus driver afterwards, particularly if his move to come into my lane was aggressive (this certainly seemed to be the case here and the bus driver's action later certainly suggests he is an angry man). I possibly would've been calmer that the cyclist in reaction to the event though, but you never know, being cut up by a bus certainly raises the adrenaline levels!

Anybody who cycles knows there are people out there that see a cyclist in front of them and feel they must overtake at all costs, because they think the cyclist is slowing them down, when in fact they rarely are, particularly in our towns and cities where cycles progress faster than motorised vehicles.

Looks to me the bus driver was trying to get round the cyclist before he thought the cyclist would slow him down by being in front of him, and in doing this cut the cyclist up.

Same as the red car then ?

Looks that way doesn't it!

As you travel from Windermere, at the junction of the A591 and A592 there is a mini roundabout, with the A591 having clearly marked lanes - the RIGHT lane for turning left up to Patterdale via Kirkstone Pass, the LEFT lane for going straight on.
There are daily incidents there caused by drivers occupying the right hand lane, driving straight across, and trying to force their way between the traffic in the left hand lane, and the island which separates oncoming traffic!

I cannot see this ever changing as enforcement action is reduced to just a few offences!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Only “probably” ? Wow.


If that incident is enough to raise adrenalin levels to such an extent that one feels they need to stop and have a heated exchange, then I would suggest they shouldn’t be riding, or driving.


It could well be that the bus driver assumed the cyclist wouldn’t be so selfish to expect everyone else, who were ahead, to be delayed so the cyclist could save less than 1 second for the cyclist to go for it. That's not an ideal assumption, but on balance I would say it would be generally viewed as reasonable.
It would be phenomenally selfish of the cyclist to expect a bus, with passengers, that’s ahead of the cyclist (by more than a bus length - there was a gap), to completely stop and yield to that one person, when all that one person had to do was not go for it.

No, it is clear the cyclist chose to close the gap on another vehicle that would otherwise have safely filtered. So, yes, I agree with the notion that the cyclist needlessly created a situation that would not have occurred if he was acting reasonably.

It is better to be safe than right.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Eh? Which video are you looking at weepej?
Take a look at this animation... (click with the scroll wheel, or right click to open in a new tab)

The front of the bus is level with the far side of the yellow box lines before the cyclist appears in the frame, and when the front wheel of the bus crosses the line, the cyclist is STILL behind the bus - which has been signalling (indicating) this intention since before the cyclist entered the frame.
The cyclist is in effect trying to pass the bus before it completes a clearly signalled manouvre - and while merging with traffic ahead (the red car) which is going to impede the cyclist, even if he had passed the bus.


Cut up? Really? The cycle enters the frame from what looks to me like the lane for turning LEFT from the junction!
This man is the sort of cyclist that gets all cyclists a bad name. Your allying yourself with him, and condoning his riding does you no favours at all.


I agree that many drivers will speed up and try to pass you before an obstruction such as a traffic island etc. but not ALL drivers.
I simply pull out a little and adopt a position that makes it clear that they will not be able to pass until I am past the obstruction.


Get round the cyclist????? Now you really are into the realms of fantasy! See the linked animation above, where the cyclist is ALWAYS behind the bus!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Indeed. In fact the cyclist (eventually) caught the bus, then apparently got annoyed when the bus 'got in the way' – which reverses things a bit:


Oops, it seems we have our answer.
We have a cyclist who, was going very slightly faster than the bus, felt he must overtake the bus at all costs because they thought the bus was going to slow him down. And because the cyclist was blocked he decides to pick an argument and winds up the bus driver. The more we discuss this, the more I can see why the driver only got 17 months.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

That raises an interesting point. Cycles and motorised vehicles in very urban areas, will often overtake / undertake each other frequently.
When I used to cycle in central London I'd often see the same vehicles again as I caught them up at the lights. Sometimes I'd 'get ahead' and over longer routes and busy traffic one would, but not always.
With even more traffic light controls, and longer phased traffic light sequences, it makes the interactions with similar vehicles ever greater.
This alone can create much frustration, as progress is 'constantly' paused, and the feeling of 'getting nowhere' might be extensively felt. Obviously some will 'feel it' more and let it get to them, than others.
Perhaps the bus driver had been cut up by all sorts of road users, that week/day, and he had reached his breaking point. There are ever greater frustrations on the road, along with higher running costs which pressurises bosses to encourage better throughput and turnover, so those in the firing line (in this case bus drivers) feel that pressure too.

I do see silly overtakes of cycles and especially those who then turn left directly afterwards, however I can also say that I have seen many cyclists do many silly things too, some on both sides will be mistakes and some are clearly deliberate. It is a shame as it takes such a little amount of brain power to think about what you are doing, and offer a little courtesy.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

Has it occurred to you how ironic that post looks in light of the fact that the bus was in front of the cyclist, and it was the cyclist who felt he must get ahead of the bus on the roundabout?

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

The cyclist was in the correct lane, the bus wasn't.

The bus cut the cyclist up, how hard can it be!?

Optician time - you missed Ernest's ( as in when hole stop digging, else you'll end up deeper in muck

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

Before this gets out of hand....
There are two videos of this one incident(s) and the first one shows the bus in front of the cyclist and the second the cyclist in front of the bus (we gather after the two 'have words' and the cyclist has banged on the bus and during the altercation 'flipped' a wiper blade.
My initial post clearly states that the action that the bus driver took was atrocious and he was correct to be punished.
No one here or elsewhere on forums has agreed with that the bus driver did, however discussions have 'moved on' to look more closely at what the cyclist did and what his part was in all of this.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.