Safe Speed Forums

is it a fair comment to tell the forum in general that I am part of the speed camera machinery? [edit: I'm still not, by the way. I'm in a far more mundane telco environment] You don’t need to describe to me how you think it is a fair comment that you think I am trolling. We’ve been over that one before, and I think the comment was fair in my first few posts but I have remained on the site specifically to maintain a level of debate by putting forward another point of view.


The EXACT wording of my private message to you was this:

The title of the PM was ‘request’.




I have not been belligerent. I can stand fair comment, enjoy lively debate and in general this site is full of it. I am happy to debate, I will even moderate my own stance when I find that my position is incorrect. This site has really been a learning exercise for me, it has helped me with my driving. My two points above are still my deeply held beliefs.


The statistics on this site say that over 3000 people are killed on UK roads each year. The government statistics say that speed is a factor in 8%, this site challenges that and suggests it is much lower. Even if it was 1% it would be over 30 people killed by speeding each year. If it was 0.1% it would be over 3 people. If it was 0.03% it would be 1 person.

If that 1 person was a young person, maybe a young lady thinking about getting married, it would be a tragedy. If she was a teacher, a good one, all of the children she now won’t teach will be worse off. If her mother and father can’t come to terms with their loss, it’s a living hell for them.

The guy that killed my cousin unilaterally decided that as it was late at night, and the road was empty, and there were no speed cameras on that stretch, he would risk a bit of speeding. He spent a few months in jail, lost his job as a driver, there was no question about his guilt.

Is that a tiny enough clue for you?

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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

What is the "offending jibe" then, Handy???

People in glass houses and all that.

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Although I used to consider myself to be a "reasonable man", the law just sees me as a criminal... My uncontrolled anti-social activities solely include the undeniable fact I usually drive my car at or just below the 85th percentile.

And that leaves over 3000 people dead each year for reasons other than speed.
What is being done about those? Precious little from where I'm standing.
What is being done about the inattentive drivers who are responsible for thousands of deaths - including that of my mother and my cousin? I'll tell you what's being done - they are simply put down to 'unfortunate accidents,' and the killers get off with a slap on the wrist.
Why do you think I get so p***ed off?

And by what mechanism does speed cause accidents?
Speed is a factor in accidents only insofar as stationary vehicles tend not to collide with anything.



I have every sympathy with your loss.
Do you have the details of what happened?

Cheers
Peter

Handy,

Having read your most recent post (your one most imidiately above mine), I can see that you are angry with "speeders" (specifically a speeder) who took one of your relatives.

I now understand your indescriminate, glib comments - but I have taken on board where you are coming from.

All that said, at the end of the day, Handy, excessive speed is NOT the sole reason why most accidents occur. Where speed is a factor, it is usually grotesque excesses which cause fatalities.

As other people have said, none of the contributors on here are looking for carte blanche licence to drive at 200+mph past a school as the kids are going in. Speeding (the offence itself), as you have actually said yourself, would literally die a death on its own if the limits were truly reasonable and appropriate.

Indeed, as for my own recent 'misdemeanour', having gone back and looked at the site in question 50 or maybe even 60mph in good weather would not necessarily be inappropriate.

Criminalising motorists and mis-educating us that in a 30 at 29 I'm somehow 'safe' yet at 31 I'm somehow to be compared like a crazed maniac is plain daft and dangerous.

Considering what you've posted above, I am prepared to offer you an apology for any distress my comments may have caused you, however, my offer of an apology does not in any way mean that if you carry on sniping (or appearing to snipe) at others or me to somehow trying to score points in future, I won't retaliate by treating fire with fire again.

If you want to keep the discussion respectful and adult, let's all do it and save the smug, cute, pious comments, eh? This is an olive-branch, Handy. I hope you won't break it and throw it back at me.

Have a great day.

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Although I used to consider myself to be a "reasonable man", the law just sees me as a criminal... My uncontrolled anti-social activities solely include the undeniable fact I usually drive my car at or just below the 85th percentile.

I understand the argument, but if there is an opportunity to save 1, 3 or 30 lives, it should be taken? Those other things also need to be addressed. In my earlier posts I called for both cameras AND traffic police. I'd prefer it if the money gained from cameras was ploughed back into a proper police presence.

If truth be told I'd also prefer it if the speed limits were addressed and the speed cameras were set to a reasonable tolerance (10% or so). But I do not agree with anyone's assertion that speed cameras should be scrapped wholesale. I believe in personal responsibility in all things, it's not popular in this day and age but I'm not out to win popularity contests. (this will not be a surprise).



I do have the details, but I don't feel that this forum, any forum is a suitable place to disclose them any more than above, except perhaps to say that in this specific case speeding WAS a factor.

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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

Thanks for the olive branch.

I've gone back and removed as much sniping as I can spot, if there is any more you'd like to see removed, drop me a PM.

I won't say 'friends now?' as that would be trite, but we can move on and have a robust grown up debate!

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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

Handy,

I feel for your loss as I feel for all who lose a loved one on the roads.

My problem is that even though speed may have been a factor in that unfortunate crash it was just that, a factor. Someone made a mistake that caused the crash and the speed contributed to the level of impact.

My question is "Was speeding, or inappropriate speed, a definite factor in the crash?" and "If speeding was the factor, how far over the speed limit was the other driver estimated to be doing? A few mph or a whole lot of mph?

The answers to these questions will determine, in my mind, whether speed cameras would have had any effect on the outcome. If the other driver was only a few mph over the limit then a camera may have made him/her slow down, but if it was a hoon without a licence or driving a stolen/unregistered car then a camera would have had zero effect.

As to the 1, 3, 30 statement, what about the possible 1, 3, 30 additional people killed on the roads every year because of inattention to the road due to excessive attention to the speedo. I have no specific instances that I can quote, as this is just my opinion, but I'm sure it does happen. If it did happen do you think the driver would stand up and say, "Sorry, I was looking at the speedo and didn't see the pedestrian"? That would be admitting to contributing to the death and I doubt there would be many people willing to incriminate themselves.

In conclusion I would like to say that even though I am on the other side of the fence I believe that you are genuine in your beliefs and look forward to more debate with you. I doubt you will swing me but I hope we can swing you.

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Ross

Yes I'm a hoon, but only on the track!!!!

In this case, speed was the causal factor as determined by forensics and the guy himself.

I didn't want to turn this into a thread about one specific accident.

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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

Handy,

I am interested in reading your response to my 1, 3, 30 statement.

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Ross

Yes I'm a hoon, but only on the track!!!!

You are the closest to this (although I doubt you'll do it) ... you did say in another thread that I could have your M3?

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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

Only for a drive if you visit, you cannot take it home with you though...

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Ross

Yes I'm a hoon, but only on the track!!!!

In many cases I've looked at both the speeding and the crash had a common cause. Sometimes reckless intention, sometimes racing on the highway, sometimes drunken bravado, sometimes very inexperienced drievers showing off. The cases that involve 'otherwise responsible' motorists speeding appear to be extremely rare. This is all the more remarkable since speeding (exceeding a posted speed limit) is extremely commonplace.

Please tell us if an 'otherwise responsible' motorist was involved in your tragedy.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

hence the speed limits should be appropriate (taken into consideration time of day and certain conditions such as weather, visibility).

Driver training should be more stringent so that ALL drivers can tell when there speed changes by 10% without having to look at the dial. This will reduce the number of cars on the road!

Camera tolerance should be 10%.

Police tolerance for Chav kevin and mr. Beemer sales rep should be 0%.

Also my point about more police on the roads, paid for by those who pay speed fines. If I ruled the world and implemented all the above, there would be LESS speed fines levied (gosh, maybe I have been turned a bit) but those who got them would really deserve them. Oh, Oh, wait, the final point is the right to appeal. The traffic police should define the appropriate speed limits. Their word would be final, so in the cases where a speed limit is inappropriate they would adjudicate and if the council was found not to have sufficient real world evidence for a limit, THEY would be fined (money going to the traffice police costs). The requirement would be for the council to provide the proof rather than wait to be proved wrong.

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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

Handy,

I believe that the loss of trend in our national fatality rate is due to bad policy and that the faulty policy is now responsible for 'not saving' about 1,500 lives each year. See these pages:

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/fatality.html
http://www.safespeed.org.uk/effects.html

I was so concerned about this effect that when I discovered it I gave up well paid work to run Safe Speed full time.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

He was a professional driver.

He decided that as it was late on an empty road with no cameras and he was in a hurry, so he would speed.

Speed was determined as causal.

Please, can we stop now.

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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

spoilsport. I'm sure it'd fit in my suitcase (I have a BIG suitcase)

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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

You might have trouble with excess weight and it might not fit through the cargo dorrs.

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Ross

Yes I'm a hoon, but only on the track!!!!