Safe Speed Forums

But the point, BW, is that in the overwhelming number of situations, that person's claims are 100% true - millions of breaches of the speed limit occur every day with no dangerous consequences. Likewise millions of comets hurtle through the cosmos posing no danger whatsover to Earth. It is only when one is on a collision course with our little planet that we would consider doing something about it.

The current approach to speed law (and the one you so vehemently support) is akin to arguing we should be blasting EVERY comet out of the sky because, in combination with other factors that may be but in the overwhelming number of cases aren't actually present, each comet presents a potential danger to Earth.

Or we could pass a law against comets, photograph any that we saw, and send them notices of intended destruction. That's bound to avoid a collision.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

And millions of people eat dinner at greasy spoons and don't get food poisoning. It doesn't mean that it is not dangerous, and it certainly doesn’t mean that we should not have limits on dirtiness. I can choose not to eat at a greasy spoon, but I have to share the roads with speeders, which is not right.



We still couldn't consider doing something about it. If it comes we are dead. Unlike speeding - we are doing something about that, and the child death toll has plummeted.



Forgive me if I don't take an astronomical excursion with you today. But if you'd like to come back down to earth, I'd be glad to discuss the speeding issue!

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I stole this .sig

I do think there's a connection between the recent gains in child deaths and "speed kills" road safety policy.

But it's not the one you imagine - in fact the one you imagine is IMPOSSIBLE - or virtually so. See this:

"Doubtless some will propose that camera enforced reduced traffic speeds have made pedestrian impacts more survivable. And it sounds reasonable ? but, and there's a very big ?but?, any benefit of reduced traffic speeds must also improve the survival chances for vehicle occupants. Clearly that isn't happening, because more vehicle occupants are dying now than they were in 1993. The imagined benefit of reduced impact speeds cannot single out pedestrians - there is no credible mechanism."

From: http://www.safespeed.org.uk/which.html

I believe the true mechanism is to do with fear of traffic fostered by "speed kills" policy. It makes pedestrians more careful and it scares them off the pavements and into vehicles. Witness the growth of the school run.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I think we can resolutely say: No it doesn't!

As you illustrate yourself - all evidence points to speed as a factor in the result, not the cause. You contradicted your own argument BW. To pursue speed as a cause when it isn't, to the exclusion of all other possible and actual causes, is ignorant and dangerous, but simple and lucrative.

Tell me the analogy isn't correct and I might discuss things further with you. Dismissiveness isn't an option here....

Another analogy, and a good opportunity to demonstrate the dangers of ignorant oversimplification. It's not the amount of dirt that matters, it's inappropriate presence of dirt. The cafe can have the most horrible decor and mucky floors imaginable as long as the food preparation areas, storage facilities and utensils are clean! It is also necessary to recognise that a certain level of 'dirt' will exist (preparation of uncooked meats for example) and to reduce the risks posed by that dirt when appropriate (washing hands afterwards!!)

Dirt does not equal danger in the same way speed does not equal danger.

It would of course just be simple to measure dirt for the whole premises, and when it exceeds a certain level pass out fines on that basis........

I too have been trying to think of a situation where speed is the cause and the bottom line is that the only cause of any accident is the driver.

I am being a little tongue in cheek here but if the person was not driving the accident would not have happened.

Of course that is not reality but what I am trying to point out is that any situation can be spun to be caused by almost anything.

If an inexperienced driver follows an experienced driver through a sequence of bends (within the speed limit) thinking that it is safe and then crash because of their inexperience one could say the cause was the speed. One could also say that the driver was at fault because he was driving beyond his ability. Or... the other driver could be accussed of being the cause because he was driving in a manner which encouraged an inexperienced driver to exceed their abilities.

It's really a non subject because different people will blame different things for the same situation.

Let's try another scenerio, a car is fitted with a tyre which is only certified for speeds up to 50mph. The driver drives at 60mph, the tyre explodes and the car crashes. Obviously speed caused the accident right. What if the driver did not know as the tyres were fitted to get an MOT just before he purchased it. So is the previous owner at fault for not telling the new owner, or is the new owner at fault for not checking the tyres, or is the manufacturer of the tyres responsible because they sold a tyre that was not certified for at least the maximum speed limit or is the mechanic who fitted the tyre at fault for fitting a low speed tyre to a car capable of much higher speed or is the driver responsible because they were not experienced enough to handle the blowout.

It's just a crappy argument so let's just give up eh.

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Ross

Yes I'm a hoon, but only on the track!!!!

You're right that it's a crappy argument in a way. But I have to deal with crappy arguments all day long in my dealings with the media and the opposition. It pays to be well prepared!

On the other hand, it's important because it's a foundation argument. Many important people (e.g. politicians and senior Police) assume that "accidents are frequently caused by speeding". Whole policies are based on this particular false and oversimplified idea.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I absolutely agree, it's just that no matter what you say someone else will come up with an equally (apparently) valid argument that places the cause on "speed".

I just wish more politicians would visit your web site and have a read. Maybe one or two of them would get the message and things might start changing. We have one politician in South Australia who supports our cause and one Federal Minister who also supports the cause but it is NOT enough.

What I was trying to demonstrate is that anyone can "spin" what they want out of a specific situation. Your facts and figures on the web site are far more relevant that this thread IMO.

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Ross

Yes I'm a hoon, but only on the track!!!!

Sure, I think that's true. However, many of the views of facts and figures started life as a discussion in a forum or a newsgroup...

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Fair point, consider head well and truly pulled in.....

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Ross

Yes I'm a hoon, but only on the track!!!!

Sorry... I REALLY didn't mean it like THAT!

Please feel free to speak your mind.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Absolutely no offence taken.

We're are hardy bunch, us convicts, and I love a good ribbing. Feel free to hang as much s**t on me as you like because I like nothing better than some banter.

I know you were not giving me a hard time, I was just playing....

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Ross

Yes I'm a hoon, but only on the track!!!!