Safe Speed Forums

If I have understood this reply correctly then this is probably the most irresponsible comment I have ever heard.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

I have every sympathy with your experiences, but it is unfair to tar all motorists (which include yourself) with the same brush.

My take on stealth cyclists and stealth pedestrians and (yes you get them) stealth motorists - is that although if you are driving/riding and you hit something it is normally the case that is entirely/substantially your fault, anyone who CONSCIOUSLY increases their exposure to risk (an extreme case is the ped/bike/car dressed in black/dressed in black with no lights/with no lights) ought to be aware that they have done just that.

A similar example is drivers with no seatbelts and cyclists with no helmets - they too have made a conscious decision which increases their exposure to risk, even though the accident which injures may well be in no way their fault?

First of all




I would refer you to a post made by IG on the Cycling forum proper here in which he typed up a reader letter written by a CW reader in which the person in the car on a school run scraped the cyclist causing him to fall and whilst apologising and getting details claimed he had not seen him "even though.. oh dear .. I see you are wearing a yellow vest .. "

Acccidents - with the best will in the land .. But wearing something which means I can be seen .... it does increase my chances of being seen,

Now last week I was in France and my wife in Switzerland. One thing we noted and compared notes on on our return - was that contrary to the myths which abound about clothing and lighting abroad.. most were wearing hi-viz capes. This choice of clothing was most probably because the whole of Europe suffered several inches of rain and min-tornadoes last week. But by gum - you could see them in very nasty visibility conditions for quite some distance ahead in that gear.

I tried to take a photo of this .. but the weather was so bad - image and photo is just terrible - I discarded it.

We noted on the roads when they had to use them - they usually used secondary positioning - moving to primary as and when they needed to. I did chat to one of these riders as he locked up his bike at a train station. (I was staying outside Paris. (L'Etoile is not one of my fun driving pastimes at any time and certainly not when Parisians are running about "faisant le shopping" You think it manic here? )

His car was also parked at the same park and ride as mine.. (It was a large 4X4 when we got to our stop) and he says he uses his bicycle across Paris because the metro is - Bof - too crowded and his route is along the "safer" Parisian routes. (I tried to get him to let me into this little secret of these "safe routes" - but Bof! - he was 'avin none of that with a "roast bif"

He was in full gear though. He had the high viz - but Parisian drivers - "BOF Alors Merde!" are colour blind when they see traffic lights and more so over cyclists in the city. But he reckons his chances of being seen by Le bus driver whose lane he sometimes shares are a little better if he has his lights and his vest. Besides - he says



We got on rather well really We had a beer anyway.

But basically mate - wherever you live - and if you ride or walk in the dark - then it's common sense to make yourself seen by others. There used to be advert I remember seeing where the announcer said sternly be seen in the dark and the black and white telly we had in them days showed a woman wearing a light coloured head scarf obviously highlighted by a car's headlamps. Another one showed children wearing hi-viz over school uniform as they went to school. IG's in his early 50s and I'm just - er - past mid 40s now. We both went to school during the BST experiment. I recall it being dark when I arrived at school just before 9 am and dark when I left at 4 pm. I remember wearing the hi-viz over my blazer as well.

So the advice is nothing new. But people have chosen to ignore it and ended up very dead or badly injured as a result.





Nope - I wear dark shades of clothes in very bright sunshine because it makes me stand out. I wear lighter and fluorescents in the dark and have the bike fully kitted with me lupines as well.

So that I can be noticed. I also use my body when changing lanes - a fuller twist to make myself "appear a bit wider" and it helps with the ey contact I need to negotiate my move outwards as well.

People - including cyclists - may miss something. Why IG trained us all up to to his own COAST standards Systematic high observation techniques - and you can never finish learning these skills either. They continue and develop with your skills and with changing road layouts as well.

I dare say the village idiots elsewhere will take the hump over this post as well. But COAST we can prove to exist and be taught as well by the very people the idiots claim to support as in "Pratnership!"




Hmm as said I will wear a darker shades and even black or navy or bottle green in very, very bright summer sunshine.. but will use lighter shades and even bright red or blue on a greyer day. You know the "dry cloudy dull"

The person who said you should have had lights on in broad daylight I never take anything for granted. I use primary if approaching a left junction. They have a better chance of seeing me if I make myself look mor prominent that "hugging the kerb and being hidden by a bollard" I also look at the wheels and where the head is turned as I approach these at junctions. I have to defend myself should they choose to pull out on me. I'm a family man and we 've already been through the angst and grief. Wildy would never forgive me either.

But I agree he was a right twazak and I trust you made it clear to his iunsurers that he was one such.




Why we keep harping on about COAST at every opportunity we get! We want this message of systematic, smooth driving which ensures cyclists, pedestrians are seen and helps reduce the "suddenly and from nowheres" as no hazard just appears "suddenly and from nowhere!" COAST also helps observe all lollies and triangles and helps create that all important choice of a safe speed which is not necessarily "illegal" - but we admit that one does drive sometimes above 70 mph on a motorway when overtaking something at 64 mph eh- chumpionman if you still lurk around



Not all are bad. But what's with the "Schmidt." Guffaw - you're surely not confusing him with some other rogue somewhere Look I'm English - my wife is Swiss. She has too many relatives You tried buying token gifts for the in-laws from hell? I think we cleaned the shelves of apples and nuts for St Nick's day.



We do ride bikes.. lot of people on PH and on here ride bikes and we drive cars as well. We all walk too. I do not drive my car into the supermarket and up the aisles. My wife is a bit nippy with that trolley though

I am sorry your cycling has hit a glitsch. From diagnosis through the treatments - you have been through a very traumatic experience there. I do not know which treatment you have had or any of the side effects either. I can only hope that your body will continue to recover and that a little gentle exercise as and when you feel you are ready - and do not overdo this - will help you long term. See your your own doctor and see what he can suggest. Hope you recover anyway.

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I have a question about that law. It doesn't relate to stealth cyclists per se (though the offending cyclist is often of the stealth variety.

An urban 30mph road near me has a zebara crossing on it. When driving in one direction, to the left of the pavement that is to my left is a tall hedge that runs for a reasonable distance before and after the zebra crossing.

This would be fine were it not for the fact that there is a small gap in the hedge, and a pedestrian footpath that is perpendeicular to the road passes through and joins the main footpath opposite the zebra crossing.

So, even in broad daylight you can be going down that road at 30 without a single pedestrian, cyclist or car in sight and when you're about a metre away from the zebra crossing, some nobber on a road bike will appear from nowhere and zip across your front bumper at speeds in excess of 30mph.

Obviously I don't cross that crossing at 30, but if you're not aware of the gap and hidden footpath, it would be reasonable to assume that the maximum safe speed there is in excess of 30, providing there's no pedestrians about.

How does the law apply here. To my mind the cyclist is not a pedestrian, so they don't get that magic priority over traffic that a pedestrian using the crossing would get, also any pedestrian, even if running, that approached from that footpath would be seen in plenty of time.

And yes, there is a fair risk that the cyclist will plough straight into a pedestrian that is using the pavement that runs alongside the road. Lets hope that happens first so no-one is seriously injured and the council are encouraged to put in those staggered fence things to stop you riding straight through.

Zebra crossings and pavements are for pedestrians. Anybody cycling on them are breaking the law. However, as you are aware of the hazard, you should adjust your driving accordingly.

Pesky cyclists, cycling on the pavemnent, eh? Should be stopped before somebody gets killed, don't you agree?









If you do agree, just remember that only 1 pedestrian has been killed on British pavements by a cyclist in the last decade. Which compared favourably with the 140-150 pedestrians killed every year on British pavements by motorists.

And do you seriously expect anyone to believe you when you describe people riding road bikes at 30 mph on the pavement. That is a serious speed for a cyclist, and will not be achieved going on the pavement.

I am and I do. However the gap in the hedge is pretty much invisible unless you know to look out fo it.



Well in Aylesbury they made it legal, and didn't even bother to try putting a white line down the middle of the path, so now you guys get to mingle with pedestrians. Oh joy.



It is a footpath across a field. I have no idea how long it is or where it goes or how many pedestrians use it but I don't see any reason why a roadbike on such a path couldn't achieve such a speed. Obviously I haven't set up a gatso on the zebra crossing to confirm their speed, but they were crossing that thing faster than I was approaching it!

Think you might find continent has some scares and disasters on shared pavements which some see as a valid argument against shared paths.

But regardless - Highway Code for pedestrians Rule 7 is quite specific and rules 18 -28 do tell you to wait and give traffic time to stop before yu cross. Pedestrians do have a right to walk across the roads - but by virtue of the Highway Code - they also should enure they do so safely, coureously and with common sense of safety and - shall we say the survival skills of continued looking and listening per the Highway Code?

Motorists are obliged to stop at zebras and compelled by a MUST at red lights and Stop Lines. They MUST also stop if pedestrian is is the act of crossing the road.

COAST awareness alerts the driver of hazard potential and COAST drivers will have the right approach speed by virtue of applying COAST

But regardless - we all have to have some sense of reality and responsibilty to try to prevent accidents whatever we are doing in life...

Mature and intelligent adults will look to avoid mishaps and seek to protect their young.

The fools will rush in whilst the wise will exercise caution

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Thankyou for your kind thoughts Mad Moggie.

Cheers Miguel and all the best for Christmas and New Year!

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

I live in Hull and on one of our busiest streets the PCSOs have been out in force several nights recently tackling both stealth cyclists and cyclists on the pavement.

That depends on what you'd regard as reasonable. Cyclists should use the road in full complience with the law, which requires them to use lights (to a set standard) but not high visibility clothing or helmets. A sensible cyclist will do more than the law requires to be visible (and many stupid ones do less) but doing "whatever they reasonably can to ensure their own safety" ignores the fact that we also have to do what we reasonably can to ensure the safety of others.

How on earth can you think this? A bicycle is a vehicle that has similar dynamics to a car, must be used on the road and obey the same rules as other vehicles. After dark they must show lights and reflectors.
On a road with a pavement the pedestrian will be on the pavement, the cyclist will be on the road. On a road without a pavement the cyclist will be riding with the traffic and the pedestrian will be walking towards it.
Get out of your head that cyclists are pedestrians on wheels, and start regarding them as legitimate road users.

I actually agree with making all road users pretty equal. The notion of pedestrians and cyclists having "rights" against the mere "licence" of motorists is abhorrent to me in the 21st Century.

We are all in the same boat together and, to paraphrase wording from H&S legislation, road users must, as far as reasonably practical, do all they can to ensure the safety of both themselves and others.

_________________
Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

i thought it was pretty clear from the first two words 'how' paul could think this.... it's also pretty clear to me that he is referring that 'in law' in this particular case of whether its negligent not to wear hi vis etc... its also pretty obvious (to me anyway) that the equivalent to a low-vis cyclist is a low-vis pedestrian _not_ on the pavement.

i think you've picked that comment rather out of context and assumed he considers cyclists are the same as pedestrians in all circumstances.
which i don't think he does (feel free to correct me paul!)

its pretty clear from his other posts on this forum that he does regard cyclists as completely legitimate road users.


if you have a counter argument or legal precedent however that shows that in the case of a low vis (but legal) cyclist being taken out, that considering the same incident with a low-vis pedestrian wouldn't be an allowable defence for the cyclist... feel free to state it.

Spot on. Thanks, although...

I think the roads are the ultimate communist society! Everyone has an equal degree of responsibility, firstly to ensure their own safety and secondly to ensure the safety of those around them.

I get seriously worried about folk who depend on others to take care on their behalf, because sooner or later it is absolutely certain that they will encounter someone who doesn't deliver on the promise. And being right is no compensation when you're dead.

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Paul Smith
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