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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 22:51 
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Aparrently mika is going live from out side the court tomorrow. cold dark ... he must be mad...
On civilian camera operators prior to thier case later that day
was on gmtv 6:15 24/10/2006

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


Last edited by anton on Thu Oct 26, 2006 10:26, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 07:01 
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Very good , Mika gave a very technical discription of the way that the law is. And another chap in the studio discribed it as scarey thin edge of the wedge where neibourhood disputes and divorces would end up with x-friends pushing for prosicutions for very minor infractions such as parking or beeping the horn at night etc

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 13:04 
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http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/arti ... article.do

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Thousands of motorists could have their speeding fines refunded thanks to a landmark court case taking place this week.

A businessman will tell magistrates his penalty charge should be overturned because the hand-held camera that caught him driving over the limit was operated by a civilian and not a serving police officer.

If he is successful, there will be a flood of similar challenges that will leave police forces with the prospect of paying back millions of pounds in fines. Motorists could also see penalty points wiped off their licences.

The case, which is backed by a pressure group opposed to speed cameras, centres on what it claims is a flaw in the Police Reform Act 2002.

The Act gave chief constables the power to employ civilians in some roles. But, according to campaigners, it did not give them the legal right to catch speeding drivers.

Empowerment

Mike Morgan, who runs the anti-speed camera website www.pepipoo.com and will speak on the driver's behalf at the hearing in Devizes Magistrates' Court, Wiltshire, told The Mail on Sunday: "There is no question in our minds that the camera partnerships are acting outside of the law by using civvies instead of police officers.

"Police constables are considered to be officers of the Crown and, as such, are deemed to be able to form what is known as a prior opinion of excess speed. The camera or other device provides the secondary opinion - but one is not valid without the other.

"We have sought top legal advice and they agree that there is no Act of Parliament that gives the civilian camera operators the empowerment to give primary evidence - only a police officer can do that."

The Home Office declined to comment and referred callers to the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO). But there would be major consequences if the motorist wins in Devizes on Tuesday as many police forces began using former parking wardens and retired officers to man their speed traps two years ago. The businessman from Wiltshire faces a £60 fine and three points on his licence.

His defence team persuaded magistrates at a previous hearing to order the Crown Prosecution Service to show where in the statute book it says that civilians operating the camera on their own can decide someone has been speeding.

Civilian operators

If the businessman is successful, then thousands of motorists prosecuted for speeding on the same basis could also have their charges declared legally invalid. Similarly, those who have already paid a fine and incurred points on their licence could appeal.

As The Mail on Sunday's undercover expose revealed last week - courts are already struggling to cope with the sheer volume of cheques for speeding fines. The Treasury banked £17million last year after safety camera partnerships in the UK went over their targets for the number of motorists they planned to catch.

Robert Dobson, a solicitor who specialises in road traffic cases, believes the Home Office should be preparing itself for a 'rough time'.

A straw poll of the UK's 42 camera partnerships found 11, including Cambridgeshire, Hampshire, and Dorset, admitted using civilian operators for their mobile devices although the Metropolitan Police in London and Thames Valley solely employed police officers.

An ACPO spokeswoman said: "A number of safety partnerships employ civilian operators for the purpose of speed enforcement. ACPO are satisfied that the position is legal and at the outset of this process obtained legal advice that supported this position."


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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 13:27 
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Any news yet?

What time is the case?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 13:46 
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The hearing started at 9:45 this morning - as it stands, the CPS have adjourned until 2:30pm while they go and check up on the law (some may say this would have been better carried out before the trial). Apparently Devizes court is packed to the rafters with press and even ACPO sent down a representative, this will be an interesting one whatever way it goes now...

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 13:56 
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I should have gone along. This morning's appointment was a waste of time, and I've got not further appointments this afternoon.

But Sat Nav says I'm 91 miles away... Hardly worth a dash. (I don't think, or is it?).

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 13:59 
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Only a question - what if it goes in favour of the police? Would there be an appeal and could this be another one that ends up in the UCHR, which then takes years to pass through the system?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 14:03 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
I should have gone along. This morning's appointment was a waste of time, and I've got not further appointments this afternoon.

But Sat Nav says I'm 91 miles away... Hardly worth a dash. (I don't think, or is it?).

Well there is a suggestion it might run until the end of the day, but I don't really think anyone knows. From what I've heard though, there's a lot of press interest and the CPS are being a lot nicer to the PePiPoo crew than they normally are. If you weren't such a trek away it really would have been worth it.

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Last edited by CarlP on Tue Oct 24, 2006 14:04, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 14:03 
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Dixie wrote:
Only a question - what if it goes in favour of the police? Would there be an appeal and could this be another one that ends up in the UCHR, which then takes years to pass through the system?


It's only in the mags. If 'we' lose, then a defence appeal would raise it to a court that sets precedence.

If 'they' lose then an appeal would be unwise, but the publicity will be extremely damaging anyway.

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Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 14:20 
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They have adjourned until 2.30.

Definitely worth going in my opinion Paul, a road safety expert would probably be interviewed by SKY, BBC and ITV who are all there!


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 14:58 
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If they lose but don't appeal then it won't set a precedent am I correct?

It may be in 'our' interests to lose then win on appeal.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 15:25 
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[Sybil Fawlty award for stating the bleeding obvious]

notice that "the businessman" does not dispute that he was breaking the law? :(

[/Sybil Fawlty award for stating the bleeding obvious]

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 15:33 
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Why would he dispute that he was breaking the law?

The issue in hand is whether or not the civilian is empowered to form a prior opinion of his speed.

If the civilian is not empowered then the issue of his speed does not come into it. Or to put it this way if the civilian is not empowered to form a prior opinion then no offence took place therefore the 'businessman' has no case to 'dispute'.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 15:44 
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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.


Last edited by handy on Tue Oct 24, 2006 18:49, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 15:50 
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handy wrote:
to summarise the position then:

"no crime has taken place unless someone notices"

More like: no-one shall be convicted of a crime unless there is evidence that crime has taken place. Personally I quite like that little quirk of our justice system.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 15:58 
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It's damn inconvenient that you have to have evidence of a crime before you can have a conviction though!


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 16:36 
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Any news?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 16:41 
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nowt on sky website

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 16:55 
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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.


Last edited by handy on Tue Oct 24, 2006 18:49, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 17:02 
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Handy, its the same old argument. Yes, a crime has taken place (under TRAFFIC LAW, not CRIMINAL LAW), but since it is a technical offence, then a technical defence is perfectly acceptable.

I wish I'd known about this - I'm only about 30 miles from Devizes :oops:

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