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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 19:27 
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Paul - move if I've posted to a wrong forum...

Bolton Paper last Thursday...
Paul Keveney reports.

A 21 year old lost control of his car on Stoneclough Road, Kearley area of Bolton and a 46 year old mother of two was killed.

The driver pleaded guilty to "undue care and attention" and received a 12 month ban from driving.

Per the story . the 46 year old was thrown 20 feet and landed down an embankment after being hit by the Fiesta at 11.40 am on January 5 this year.

The driver lost control coming out of an S bend which locals say is a blackspot.

Zoe Salter prosecuting claimed that the young driver entered the right hand bend.. lost control.. mounted the pavement on the near side and hit the pedestrian.

Witnesses say they heard the squeal and screech of brakes as the driver tried to regain control. He suffered some minor injuries.

Kim Morton - defending said her client admitted driving at 35 mph in the 30 mph zone... and could not get control of the car which began to swerve and there may have been diesel on the road which caused the car to skid. She said her client was very very remorseful and has suffered such trauma that he cannot face getting into a car of even going to work since this incident. He has been driving for four years - clean licence and no drink or drugs found in his system.

The bench told the defendant that he was not being prosecuted for dangerous driving and that their guidelines state fine and points on licence. The magistrate went on to say that they were using deiscretion and decided to ban for 12 months with a £300 fine and costs of £35.

Stoneclough Road has seen 17 accidents and 27 injuries within a three year period.

it has no speed camera. It is not lucrative enough

The family is considering a civil case against the driver. I think they should await the decision of the insurance company and then take legal advice based on this.

As I could not picture this event .. I asked my sister to go take some photos. She did but she misinterpreted the scene. To her .. she thought he must have hit on the downhill past the Kearsley station as

my sister in e-mail to me wrote:

I drove down this road first in my own BMW and then in the old Cavalier. I noted that I had to feather the brake to keep it at a constant 30 mph.

I then cycled down Stoneclough from the A666 lights and found the bike was "running away with me and I had to ride the rear brake to keep it steady.

As you come under the railway bridge - there's a VAS or Smiley Sid sign which appears to flash up 30 mph if you are at 35 mph. We tested this 8 times in each car.

On the opposite side of the road near the bus stop on the opposite side as you drive down this hill - there are a lot of floral tributes to the deceased. I felt I was intruding on her shrine so I did not take a photo .. but crossed myself, prayed for her - and left a rose for her.

I cannot see how he lost it on that climb if he hit her after negotiating the bend. I did it on my bike and it was some gradient. I then drove all the way to Ringley and turned back ....bend is OK at 35 mph as I took the S bends at this speed -even though absolutely illegal to test the bend. It was at the time England was playing and no traffic on it. However, have to say I felt more comfy at 28 mph on this S -bend series but I felt it only fair to test and despite the "diesel claim" - I just cannot see how he "lost it here" I suspect his speed was well in excess of 35 mph given the distance from the bend and where the collision occurred - if he was travelling from Bury to Kearsley.

If he hit her on the downhill from the lights - I can see how that may have happened.

Have taken a couple of photos and uploaded for you to post up Ted. I think the mags were right to ban and fine. I think it would have been worse if he had just been fined and given half a dozen points.

I do appreciate that the lady's family want to see the key thrown away and want revenge .. but the ban was a good call here. Could have been a lot "softer" and we have to think about the guy as well. He's suffering the effects too and I know it seems unfair from a grieving point of view when grief is "raw" - we have been there with you Ted..... but you are right. That guy will suffer the same life sentence of guilt.


My sister goes off on some personal issues here.... :oops:

It is difficult - we see the situation from the grieving relative's point of view but we have to remember that a young man feels very guilty too.

However, my sister's photos do leave some odd question marks on this.


Photo One ... this is the down hill towards Bury. My sister seriously thought the incident occurred as he came down the hill based on skid marks near the scene.

Image


Tree opposite the slow sign and road work patch marks the tree in which he collided. Beyond - the last of the S bends ...


Image


View of the S bend where he "allegedly lost it" The bus stop you can perhaps just about make out on the uphill is where this incident occurred. My sister did not want to photograph the shrine and intrude on the famikly grief but she left a flower for her and a prayer.

I think he was in excess of 35 mph to be honest .. and maybe he did get off lightly. But was not there ..

Image


You can see perhaps just from these photos why we have some doubts as to 35 mph. We think he must have been a lot faster ... :oops: :? :shock:


Edited to fix quotes :roll: :oops:

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Last edited by Mad Moggie on Sun Jun 18, 2006 20:34, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 20:04 
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I used to live just down the road on Ringley Road near Philips Park. I forever observed people driving at speeds well in excess of the speed limit down the hill from the A666 until just before Stoneleigh Close on the right hand side opposite the industrial estate when it goes back up the hill into the 40 limit. The downhill bridge section is wide which I think gives people a false impression of what is a safe speed.

The place is a prime candidate for road engineering, hatching, bollards, rumble strips, improved signage and lighting. There's no way he was doing 35mph to be able to lose it there and cause such devastation. More likely 50.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 20:07 
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I agree with you. I do not see how he hit on an uphill past the bend and threw the woman 20 feet at 35 mph. I have to say I think the ban is correct and maybe the best they could do under current guidelines.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:05 
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If the victim/s are dead often the perpetrator's evidence of their speed is all the court can rely on. How many people are going to be honest about their speed prior to a collision when there is no evidence to the contrary and any witness estimates are liable to be rubbished by a good lawyer? Furthermore insurance companies tell you not to admit liability after a collision.

Moral and ethical question: would you be honest about something like this if the result was likely to be prison?

I think I would but it would leave a bitter taste knowing many people wouldn't.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 21:54 
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A Cyclist wrote:
If the victim/s are dead often the perpetrator's evidence of their speed is all the court can rely on. How many people are going to be honest about their speed prior to a collision when there is no evidence to the contrary and any witness estimates are liable to be rubbished by a good lawyer? Furthermore insurance companies tell you not to admit liability after a collision.

Moral and ethical question: would you be honest about something like this if the result was likely to be prison?

I think I would but it would leave a bitter taste knowing many people wouldn't.


Have to say it.. perhaps one pleads according to legal advice given. I do know that the Swiss lawyer (Andreas) did remark to me in a chatty conversation ( you know the type - the one in which we try to set the world straight and bang to rights in our own minds ) that he would seek to mitigate the punishment on behalf of a client as he is paid to seek best outcome for the person he is paid to defend within the framework of the law and statute.


To set record straight ... guy and his chums are each as straight as the proverbial die - but they act in the interest of their clients and within the realms of equity and justice as well. In a conversational aside p- they did quip that it was like walking a tightrope and juggling at the same time - amd most certainly not the cushy job those not in know like to think it is.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Of course :wink: :roll: :P

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 00:40 
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Inquest update on this... per Boton Press - page two Tuesday. Pool journalist reported.

Quote:

A speeding driver could have avoided a fatal accident if he had applied his brakes an inquest ws told.

Coroner Jennifer Leeming heard that the 61 year old grandmother was walking on the pavement on Stoneclough Road .. (see the photos for location) .. when the Fiest driven by 20 year old Ngoc Lam ran into her. The car then hit a tree.

Lam, who lives in Bury and works at his brother's takeaway in Heaton told police he was on his way to work .,. travelling at 35- 40 mph in the 30 mph limit


I think, like Martin, way above 40 mph to be honest here... :roll:

I think approaching the bend as seen from photo two and not towards Kearsley per photo three as we originally thought at the time.
Quote:

He lost control of the car as it went around the bend at the Europa Trading Estate.


My sister provided the photos and she took one photo at the junction where the estate meets Stoneclough Road.

Quote:

He tried to correct the car but turned the wheel too far, struck the pavement and then the lady.

He told the inquest he had not braked

"I did not know what to do. It happened so fast.." :roll:


Both my sisters say any driver worth having a licence would be easing off if speed had increased on the gradient and running smoothly into the bend - without a slide or pull.


Following the accident - Lam was convicted of driving without due care and attention, banned from driving for a year and given a £300 fine..

As he left the witness box .. the deceased's distraught daughter lunged at him screaming at him to "tell her baby where her Nanny is"

She had to be restrained by her other relatives..

Collision Investigator PC Dickman told the coroner that Lam was not driving at less than 40 mph and perhaps was above 40 mph as he approached the bend. :roll:

If he had braked at all - he would not have travelled as far as he did up the road.

Bolton's principal road accident inverstigation told the inquest that new measure have been brought in to encourage drivers to slow down since this incident. [/quote]

There is a VAS which lights up as the driver approaches the bridge.

:yesyes:

Quote:

Recording a verdic of accidental death - the coroner added that she would be failing in her duty if she did not make a further comment.

'ere we go....

"!There has been a recent road safety campaign which says "speed kills" and that is certainly true.. but what does that mean?

It means that a life is cut short and family and friends suffer devastation at that loss. We must all remember this when we get behind the wheel of our cars


Hmmm.. Influenced by the outburst of raw and wretched emotion perhaps..

As far as I can establish .. guy drove like an ignorant t:censored:t


No COAST values .. did not even brake or ease off as he went on a fairly steep gradient towards this bend....

Which had another fatal last month.. coming up in the ohter direction when car collided at that junction in photo three. :banghead:

It's still not applying COAST.... and had we been making more of COAST - which encourages safest speed under all conditions and not sweeping road safety policies under one mantle :( .. perhaps a little girl's Nana would be tucking into a turkey and tinsel meal with her on Monday.

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Smilies are contagious
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We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !

But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 03:43 
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On a purely psychological level, at which I am no expert by any means, do we not remember confessing to our transgressions as children, and the underestimations we made in our favour?

To my mind if he had really been going 35mph, he would have said he was within the 30mph limit. To have actually confessed to exceeding the speed limit, I imagine he was actually exceeding it by some margin.

Maybe I was just a dishonest kid... :roll:


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 04:46 
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RobinXe wrote:
To my mind if he had really been going 35mph, he would have said he was within the 30mph limit. To have actually confessed to exceeding the speed limit, I imagine he was actually exceeding it by some margin.

In the absence of corroborative evidence, any claims relating to speed are merely hearsay.

Maybe this advances the case for pre-accident black boxes...

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 00:46 
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No, it's easy to see the scumbag who murdered an innocent woman was SPEEDING by looking at the road. How did he manage to get onto the right hand pavement, for God's sake, if he wasn't driving like a complete dickhead?

But heaven forbid one of your murdering speeding 'friends' prove your website wrong.

I'm getting two of these next week:

http://www.actioncameras.co.uk/ATC-2000.html

which will be mounted front and rear in my car. No doubt I'll have secured a handful of convictions by the end of the week, once I send the video footage to the police.
I think I'll also park up in sight of some traffic lights and nab some of the arrogant speeders who go through red lights, because they think they're more important than everybody else.

I guess you speeders must be crapping your pants at the new technology that's coming out...

You might even have to obey the speed limits, and stop being arrogant tossers who think you are above the law, and that you are more important than other people! Whatever next!


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 00:53 
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Mosis!!!

Good to read your wailing, hand-wringing, spittle infested bile once again!

Hope you and your loved ones had a merry christmas.

Best Wishes

xxxxxx

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 00:53 
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Whoopee....I'm worried.
Fit them on the sides as well.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 00:59 
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ihatespeeders wrote:
I'm getting two of these next week:

http://www.actioncameras.co.uk/ATC-2000.html

which will be mounted front and rear in my car. No doubt I'll have secured a handful of convictions by the end of the week, once I send the video footage to the police.

Please let us know when you get any convictions.

I won't be holding my breath...

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 01:00 
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I will fit one on either side as well, should be handy for getting dangerous overtakers. I can do a nice 'mix' of them all when I get home:
from tailgater, with standard aggressive bastard at the wheel, to dangerous overtake on the right hand side, while my front camera films the poor innocent drivers who are watching their lives slip past in front of them as said bastard drives at them in THEIR lane, to his aggressive swing back in...

Aahh...

Poor little baby... He got all angry when he went out driving because the speed limit was too slow for him...

Threw his dummy out of the pram...

Then killed somebody.

There are hundreds of thousands of people like me who will be only too happy to start using these cameras ALL the time, EVERY time we are driving, and we are going to stop a huge number of you idiots from ever driving again. You'll be facing so many charges by the end of your typical week of speeding you'll never drive again. The videos will be flooding into police e-mail boxes 24 hours a day. And all with YOUR registration plate and YOUR face clearly visible, and then somebody ELSE will send in ANOTHER video of you on the same day, ALSO speeding and/or risking other people's lives...
The Mr.Plod will come and knock on your door...

What a shame...


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 01:14 
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SigmaMotion wrote:
Mosis!!!


Quite. This previously banned poster has been suspended again.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 01:41 
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ihatespeeders wrote:
No, it's easy to see the scumbag who murdered an innocent woman was SPEEDING by looking at the road. How did he manage to get onto the right hand pavement, for God's sake, if he wasn't driving like a complete dickhead?


He did not murder anyone, he was not convicted of murder.

Quote:
But heaven forbid one of your murdering speeding 'friends' prove your website wrong.

I'm getting two of these next week:

http://www.actioncameras.co.uk/ATC-2000.html

which will be mounted front and rear in my car. No doubt I'll have secured a handful of convictions by the end of the week, once I send the video footage to the police.


Please post your Data Protection Act registration details.
also, don't film any minors as you could be in real trouble

Quote:
I think I'll also park up in sight of some traffic lights and nab some of the arrogant speeders who go through red lights, because they think they're more important than everybody else.


I doubt any member here would condone running red lights. Is your camera home office approved, if not you've no admissable evidence.
Of course you could review your 'films' and observe your own mistakes and try to learn from them, buy 3 and point one at your speedo

Quote:
I guess you speeders must be crapping your pants at the new technology that's coming out...


Who's a speeder, innocent 'til proven Guilty.

Quote:
You might even have to obey the speed limits, and stop being arrogant tossers who think you are above the law,



Response deleted for the the general good.

Quote:
and that you are more important than other people! Whatever next!


I'm sorry to burst your bubble but I am the most important person in my life, If I stay alive and healthy I will enjoy the company of my wife and friends, enjoy my productive working life, pay my taxes and try to make the world a better place(than it is or might be) for any kids I may have. I think this is true of just about every one.
but,
to get along in this world, we all need to co-operate to make the systems work.

You are obviously, unaware of the general feeling that any emotional reaction to poor driving is worse than the poor driving. I have heard said that the driver should aim to drive in a state of Zen like calm. Do you?

fatboytim


Last edited by fatboytim on Fri Dec 29, 2006 17:36, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 02:07 
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I say good luck to him. If he really can video obviously dangerous drivers and pass the footage on to the police then I won’t stop him.

However

Given his posts here I would guess that what he views as dangerous will be dismissed out of hand by the police; if he argues or persists or in any conducts himself as he has done in this forum he could end up being charged for wasting police time.




Anyway, I thought his recorder was already more or less ready to go 2 months ago:

“I've got four lovely cameras mounted in my car and I'm compiling a nice body of evidence against speeding drivers (and other bad drivers). I'll be taking my first compilation to the police tomorrow - eight cases of dangerous driving, in only one week. I'll be interested to see what they do with unequivocal evidence. Let's hope some of your lot are on there...”

Yet from the seemingly same person:

“I'm getting two of these next week:”

So obviously full of hot air :roll:


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 04:32 
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Here, clearly, is someone who has not bothered to actually read about what SafeSpeed stands for, but merely taken an emotive stance against what (s)he erroneously views as the condonement of speeding!

I have often thought how nice it would be to be able to take videos of drivers who acted like morons in close proximity to me (much better than forcibly removing their windscreen wiper and hitting them with it), but in reality I would rather spend my money on wine and women than diddy waterproof cameras. I also didn't fancy being laughed out of the police station foyer when I showed up with my compliation tape of 'Now Thats What I Call Silly Drivers 8', showing a series of isolated incidents of less-than-perfect driving, ham-fistedly edited together, thus rendering any legal standing they may have precariously had as digital media thoroughly void.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 18:54 
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ihatespeeders wrote:
No, it's easy to see the scumbag who murdered an innocent woman was SPEEDING by looking at the road. How did he manage to get onto the right hand pavement, for God's sake, if he wasn't driving like a complete dickhead?

But heaven forbid one of your murdering speeding 'friends' prove your website wrong.

I'm getting two of these next week:

http://www.actioncameras.co.uk/ATC-2000.html

which will be mounted front and rear in my car. No doubt I'll have secured a handful of convictions by the end of the week, once I send the video footage to the police.
I think I'll also park up in sight of some traffic lights and nab some of the arrogant speeders who go through red lights, because they think they're more important than everybody else.

I guess you speeders must be crapping your pants at the new technology that's coming out...

You might even have to obey the speed limits, and stop being arrogant tossers who think you are above the law, and that you are more important than other people! Whatever next!



I hope it remembers to cop RLJs on bicycles :wink: :roll:


I think Mad Doc's sister summed it up by the way. Quite possibly he had been travelling a lot faster .. but you could not necessarily prove it.

By all accounts the driver is suffering from all of this - and the pains will be just as searing for him as for the victims.

If you think I jest.. be a traffic policeman for a day and you will know the sheer horror on all sides.


Even when we charge the driver with whatever.. we try to ensure that he retains his dignity. Why make things worse for him or her? They are entitled to explain what happened and mitigate as best they can in the courts. That is what the scales of justice represent after all.

I may work as one who enforces the law .. but I would hope to do so fairly.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 21:55 
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If I may....

I used to live in Radcliffe, only a couple of miles from this road. I know it very very well.

Important considerations:

1) Around the bend, out of sight, used to be a Paper Mill. Lots of HGVs in and out all day long.
2) Up the hill, behind the camera above the bridge, is a scrapyard/garage type affair.

So its entirely plausible that there was diesel on the road.

Also, the area around the paper mill is mostly terraced housing lining the road. The surface is smooth, there is a pedestrian crossing, there are railings protecting pedestrians also. Its an area where quite often people drive too fast. As you approach the bend, to head up the hill, the road narrows quite severely.

Satellite image of location

The hill is pretty steep. I've been down it the other way on my racing bike, 50mph is very easy to hit. If you try and take the bend at 50mph, you'll be dead. Even 30mph on a bike is pushing it.


Anyway.

In my opinion, and remember I know this road well - the driver was an idiot. Pure and simple. Coming around that bend (its a very sharp bend), probably far too quickly, he lost control. Any experienced driver knows that when you lose control, and cannot possibly regain it, you slam the anchors on and push the clutch in until the car comes to a complete halt. I doubt he did this. I think he swung one way, then the other, then lost it completely, all the while attempting to regain control. If he'd locked the wheels up, he may well have avoided hitting the woman.

I think Careless Driving is probably the correct punishment, although it must be galling for the family of the woman who was killed. I very much doubt he'll do it again.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 22:00 
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fatboytim wrote:
ihatespeeders wrote:
I'm getting two of these next week:

http://www.actioncameras.co.uk/ATC-2000.html

which will be mounted front and rear in my car. No doubt I'll have secured a handful of convictions by the end of the week, once I send the video footage to the police.


Please post your Data Protection Act registration details.
also, don't film any minors as you could be in real trouble



Nothing illegal about this actually. He could film whatever he liked, including children. He could stand outside a school all day long filming kids if he wanted to, so long as it was from public land.


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