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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 08:34 
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From the Tiimes Online

I note they are thinking of allowing 16 year olds to get provisional licence and looking at ways to implement at school.

I think they have been looking at my cousin Jessika's leadership style. :hehe:

She ist Headteacher und she ist H-H-HOT on Road Safety - she alternated the swimming and vollyeball and dance PE sessions with cycling lessons for her Year 7/8s und PSE includes Green Cross und Highway Code in each Year Group.

She also has DVD Hazard Awares und the DVD practice Driving Test as part of the PSE curriculum for her Year 11/13s Und she runs an Adult Class (heavily subscribed on "Making Pals With Car" - in which she covers basic car maintenance = und discusses handling und promoted COAST that way :hehe:

I think perhaps if COAST features in test und ist really tested - along with a requirement to have night drive in lessons und test to include rural und motorway type roads ... und maybe increased in duration - und kids really unerstand how the car works so that they understand und are "at one und ore at ease" with handling und control - this would also help.

Paulie .. after typing this.. not sure if belong here or in "Improve Driving" und I did not check to see if already posted there either .. :roll:

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Changing Gears

More restrictions are needed on young male drivers



It is a sobering statistic early in a new year, but, on recent form, more than a thousand young drivers will be killed or seriously injured in the course of 2007. The accident rate for young drivers, especially young male drivers, is wildly disproportionate when compared with older motorists, and still striking when contrasted with women of the same age. Furthermore, the greater the number of young people travelling together as driver and passengers, the more likely is the chance of an accident when compared with an older group of people. Speed is often the cause of tragedy, but it is sometimes just a matter of inexperience. New drivers are often unfamiliar with the road at night and have no notion of operating on a motorway until first setting out on their own.

This is not acceptable. Stephen Ladyman, the Road Safety Minister, is right to contend, as he does in his interview with The Times today, that more rules need to be imposed. In Britain new motorists “first pass the test, then learn to drive”. The current driving test rewards young men for being technically competent enough to manage the requirements asked, but ignores that their attitudes might be quite inappropriate for the road. Overseas experience suggests that it is possible to cut the number of deaths and accidents substantially if a fresh approach is taken. Ministers appear to be open-minded on what strategy is best. The Department for Transport is, nevertheless, interested in a “deal” under which young people start learning to drive at an earlier age — perhaps 16 — but must record many more hours behind the wheel (100 or more) before being permitted to take their test. Sweden has adopted this formula and has far lower fatalities and injuries as a result. There are, nevertheless, some difficulties with this. At present rates, anyone learning to drive with a professional instructor will pay far more to acquire his or her licence if the 100-hour norm is accepted. That prospect might lead teenagers to look to friends and relatives to teach them rather than to those better qualified. This might be averted if driving could be integrated into the school curriculum, but it is hard to imagine how this might be done at the moment, given the many demands on the crowded timetable. There is also the real risk that driving records could be faked. Other options should be considered. There are a number of possibilities. These include making the present test much harder, so that failure at the first attempt is the acknowledged norm. In Germany, young people can hold a licence at 17 but cannot drive alone until 18. Other countries impose night-time curfews on young drivers or limit the number of passengers they can carry. All of these schemes deserve serious investigation. Pilot projects should be contemplated. Britain cannot continue with the status quo. After the age of 25, British drivers are as safe as those in other countries. Fatalities are concen-trated at the young end of the age spectrum. It should not be assumed that teenage males, in particular, have a “right to drive” when they are doing so much damage to themselves, their passengers and those who have the misfortune to share the road with them. The combination of more hours behind the wheel before being allowed to go solo, a more robust test and greater restrictions on young men might be sensible. Something must be done.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:48 
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Absolutely brilliant. This is exactly the sort of education program thats going to make real road safety benefits.

I'm all for an hours based approach, since it instills a supervised experience building aspect too, though perhaps 100 hours all with an instructor is a bit excessive. Military elementary flying training is only 60! I have a figure of 30-40 hours in mind, with suitably trained and standardised instructors.

What I feel is important is the opportunity for continued assessment the scheme offers. Rather than having unassessed 'freebies', driving around with the instructor for an hour, every sortie could be scored, and a certain level required for progression to the next aspect of the syllabus. This could be augmented with periodic progress checks with a qualified person other than the instructor, with a minimum average score required across these before being allowed to sit the final test. This would allow assessment of 'roadmanship' (attitude and how its applied in driving), as well as getting a better view of the student's general driving ability, rather than the very limited snapshot a single 'final handling test' provides.

Beginning this training at a younger age makes sense, particularly with the time constraints young people face, as does integrating it with the school curriculum, though it would leave 16 year old school leavers at a disadvantage (the new driving underclass?). That said, I would not advocate giving 16 year olds provisional licences. This could be something they earn at 17 through passing their first year of 'roadcraft' satisfactorily.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 12:21 
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All that is going to happen is that the honest few will do the hours and the rest will drive illegally knowing full well the chance of being stopped is next to zero and if they are the punishment will be tiny compared to the cost of having 100 hours of driving experience. Illegal driving is at an all time high and this is largely down to making the driving test harder. It also has the knock on effect of more young people being killed as they're travelling in 4 or 5 in a car rather than the 1 or 2 of before.

The driving test should be made easier and use the CBT style with restrictions until a full test is passed later after a minimum of 2 years holding the CBT style licence. You can then instil the idea that passing the test is the first part and that you don't learn to drive properly until you have passed the second part. That could be made more like the advanced driving test with enhanced hazard perception but based on real road conditions and talked through with the examiner rather than the current random clicking of the computerised test. It should also be possible for someone to remain with just the CBT if they wanted to stay with the smaller engined cars and other restrictions eg no more than 1 passenger. The more complicated you make things the harder it is to enforce.

The problem is the attitude. Young people will not accept restrictions based soley on their age, it could also be illegal! A lot of them are perfectly capable of driving safely and they shouldn't be penalised for a minority of idiots who want dealing with directly rather than tarring everyone under 21 as dangerous. Those driving like prats at 17 will still be driving like prats at 25 assuming they're still alive. These are the ones that go onto be the dangerous drivers of the future as they don't have a clear idea of real risk or have a desired risk level much higher than the norm. Weeding those people out and dealing with them separately would be much better. If they prefer increased risk levels how about allowing risky drivers to drive but only if they have a sharp spike in the steering wheel?! If they crash they get punctured regardless of whose fault it was so would learn how to drive defensively. Might focus their minds a bit :twisted:


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 12:45 
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The thing is teabelly, is there actually any evidence that smaller engined cars are significantly safer? Pretty much any car on the road is capable of doing the sorts of excessive, inappropriate speeds that 'boy racers' seek, look at the proportion of them driving corsas and novas (I'm pretty sure the neon lights and loud exhaust don't make them perceptibly faster).

I'm positive that you're absolutely correct about the current illegal diving, but perhaps introducing it at school could indoctrinate them more into the culture of licencing, as well as providing the tuition at reduced cost. It may well encourage them to take the test for a number of reasons; it might be cheap/free, it's introduced to them gradually, it's the only way they can drive at that age, and it doesn't require them to overcome their apathy and get off their asses to go book lessons! If anything it's more likely to be positive than the 'sprint through a few lessons and have a stab at your test' approach.

If it could be funded through the education budget (suitably increased for the purpose) then I am sure that 99.99% of 16yos would take it as their opportunity to earn a provisional and get on the roads for no outlay, during school time.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 12:58 
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Insurance companies seem to think so which is why anything over a 1 litre for a young person is usually prohibitively expensive. I insured a 2 litre as a first car many moons ago (group 12) but I doubt whether anyone could afford to do it these days. I thought paying £1000 then for TPFT was outrageous but these days young folks are paying double that for some asthmatic group 1 or 2 car.

I always find tiny engined cars more frightening and way more dangerous than powerful cars. In a powerful car you can choose to travel slowly but in a puny engined car you can't make it accelerate faster if you need to so you can never accelerate out of danger. You also have a much higher safety margin as powerful cars tend to handle better than their shopping trolley cousins.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 14:40 
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As a parent of teenage sons, the thing that worries me about small cars is the overwhelming evidence from the actuarial industry that if you DO have a smash you are far better off being in a bigger vehicle!


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 19:28 
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Whilst I dont think tightening up the driving test or restricting car size will make much difference, for the government to lead with this on jan 2nd . It is a major shift from speed cameras to education as a solution.

We all should be pleased, also the messages that scamera units will be dispanded r re-arranged in april. :?

Of course they might have decided to put in more! Or maybe they have got insider words that Idris has won??? :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 21:07 
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teabelly wrote:
All that is going to happen is that the honest few will do the hours and the rest will drive illegally knowing full well the chance of being stopped is next to zero and if they are the punishment will be tiny compared to the cost of having 100 hours of driving experience. Illegal driving is at an all time high and this is largely down to making the driving test harder.

Yes, if you make the driving test harder and/or more expensive to pass, it will simply encourage unlicensed driving and tend to make driving a middle class privilege rather than something available to all.

teabelly wrote:
It also has the knock on effect of more young people being killed as they're travelling in 4 or 5 in a car rather than the 1 or 2 of before.

Yes, we have already seen a dramatic drop-off in the numbers of under 21s passing their test which I'm sure has an effect on the number of fatalities, as you say.

teabelly wrote:
The driving test should be made easier and use the CBT style with restrictions until a full test is passed later after a minimum of 2 years holding the CBT style licence.

Also agreed, the initial hurdle needs to be made lower, but it should become a multi-stage process rather than a one-off test.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 22:15 
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Although no light has penetrated the revenue fortress about speed cameras yet, we do have a fairly good learner model over here:

http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/Cars/RoadSafety/IssuesAndInitiativesForYoungDrivers.htm

This includes "compulsory 120 hours of supervised driving experience" which is not restricted to professionals and I am really glad of that. The driving schools have traditionally trained drivers in how to get their licence. AFAIAC this is just bullshit as what they need to learn is how to survive on the roads.

I trained both my kids with many hours of driving in all sorts of conditions and even spent some time on the racetrack with one of them. I taught them all about appropriate speed for conditions and regularly pointed out danger situations to encourage observation. I had not heard of COAST back then but that is basically what I was teaching them.

When they were ready to get their licence I sent them to a driving school for a couple of lessons on how to get their licence. They both got them first time and so far have not been involved in any sort of paint swapping that I know of. I insure the cars under my company umbrella, with them as nominated drivers, so I would be the first to know if they damaged a car significantly. I do not count the rear end shunt my daughter received nor the significant rear quarter damage she received while the car was parked and she was at work.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 23:04 
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prof beard wrote:
As a parent of teenage sons, the thing that worries me about small cars is the overwhelming evidence from the actuarial industry that if you DO have a smash you are far better off being in a bigger vehicle!


True .. why we chose fairly medium cars for our kids. It costs me to insure ... but to be fair .... the three young drivers do hand over some of their holiday/part time job earnings as contribution towards. They are named on the policies in their own right to build up their NCB records and it also gives them a sense of responsibility in that their name is on the policy .. even though I pay most of the premium for them. :roll: I would rather that .. and rather them be in a reasonably "medium and average size/capacity" car than a small vehicle which tends to disintingrate completely when in a minor shunt. Also .. if they do have four young adults travelling within it including selves.. it would not be as unstable as a Micra or similar :wink: with a "heavy" load. .. :roll:

Not that they do.. but am aware that the twins will travel together to socials and will each have their boy and girl friend as companion. Oh and before lurks get "ideas" and add two and two together to make five.. our twins are my son Nick and my daughter Steffi. :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 23:27 
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Wrote this in the Cycling forum discussion but guess equally valid here

what I in answering Martin in the Cycling debate wrote:
I will post this to the related thread as well.. but the Chief of Driving Instructors did say that there is a tendency to practise only on the test routes so that the student driver will drive according to the rubric of the test and then be "lost completely" on new and unfamiliar ground when left to own devices - making silly and even tragically lethal mistakes. In fact, he echoed something which I posted to vonhosen on the PH site on this same topic .. when I described that the reason why we did the block lessons with our kids and then had them out with different family members in very different areas and times of the day was giving our young a varied experience routine and then tightening up in the two days before the big test day itself on the test routes. Could be why Durham's trainer was so far from "base" as well ;) The real test of "understanding" lies in the "unseen exam" where you apply what you have learned - and show and prove you have understood it. ;)

The guy said exactly what has been said by most of us and certainly by Paul ;) ....that drivers need experience and can only obtain this by driving on different roads and even the familiar roads in different road, time and weather conditions. Hence the call to allow the kids to practise earlier and for longer before being of age to take a driving test. It would help if after these lessons .. these children were taught to evaluate their drives and how they might improve and learn more in formal lesson time .



Like Ross.. our three eldest did have the benefit of varied well able and enthusiastic motorists across our family and did benefit very much from lessons with the family BiBs. They have been brought up with a strong sense of "safety and responsibilty for selves" - and all our kids are very proficient and quite fit cyclists anyway :bow: and our youngest aged two now .. just loves tearing around our garden and the local park areas on her trike and a bicycle with stabilers :lol: She already shows abilty to steer and seems well able to judge speed and distance within her own "speed" range already. :lol: :bow: on her bikes and pedal cars and so on.. :lol: OK .. so it's around 5- 10 mph .. but she's only a tot.. and my paternal pride is overflowing here :roll: :oops: :roll: :wink:

But.. lessons for the three young drivers began when they were 14 years old. We got them to take note of our driving and what was happening out there on the roads. We had them on tracks and go-karting sessions to "get some feel of higher power, speed and handling" which is of course very different from handling a bicycle :wink:

This was followed with the Highway Code and the Hazard Aware DVD games which we used more to look at the clips and discuss the developing hazards as we know real life situation is a far cry from clicking a mouse in a controlled envrironment. We then extended this to getting them observe the roads when out with us .. and just asking in much the same way as Ern apparently does with his kids.. what hazards, if any they could see as "potential" and just asking general observation questions - which we followed through when they were actually practising their drives with us.

Lessons were purchased in blocks .. We arranged for lessons at different times of the day .. and the initial block was designed to get "handling and feel" prior to practise with various family members and then a final block aimed at pure training on the rubric of the test on the test circuit.

When they passed .. we gave time for the euphoria to pass .. and then went out with them and their "solo" was with us following at a discreet distance :lol:

I think I have done everything I can to set them on a safe , steady and enjoyable driving career. The eldest already has taken and passed IAM and RoSPA courses and the twins have not only a sibling "rivalry" but also a strong and safety led desire to match him and ourselves :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 01:03 
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MM- you last post - takes me back many years -to what happened in my time ( though i was an exception - i took private lessions and returned home with a licence) .In those days - father /uncle etc taught kids. Kids passed test - mentor brought kids up to reasonable standard before letting them loose on roads .Me - i had licence but had to prove i could drive -like going on apprenticeship .Problem is that these days kids go to driving school, get licence. In words of song "what you have know ,you ain't had time to learn" Unless they have old fashioned parents who can evaluate , or in the case of your lucky kids some real experts on hand to help and advise.
Babies don't just get up and walk - they need help to stagger and not fall - just like those with new licences.
Looking at the post header --about bikes - would any sane cyclist let someone who had just learnt to ride loose in town traffic??


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:55 
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I'd like to see the current Pass Plus course made compulsory. I passed my test relatively recentley (14 months ago) and the Pass Plus was a massive help in gaining experience after passing. Driving on the motorway for the first time is so much easier and less nerve racking when you have an instructor with you. I can't possibly imagine what it would be like to go on for the first time solo. It also included night driving down a country road in the pouring rain with high winds, another thing I'd not liked to have done solo first time round.

I think having an instructor who was interested in teaching me to drive rather than teaching me to pass the test was also a massive help, he even offered at one point to submit me for the test but also said he thought I needed longer before to become a better driver, despite being ready to take the test (I declined the offer of course :)).

It's worked so far, 14 months and no incidents yet *touch wood*.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 13:42 
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What proportion of the young drivers involved in accidents are, I wonder, driving illegally? Where I live i usually hear the revving engines are tyres sqealing on Friday and Saturday nights. The following morning there are burned out cars on the local parks.
I suspect therefore that a lot of illegal driving is going on, and that a lot of the illegal drivers are unqualified kids, some underage as well. If these are the ones who are having the accidents, making it harder to obtain a driving licenece is not going to help.
That being said I fully support any move to improve driver education. But we also need to enocurage young drivers to operate within the system.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 13:55 
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My 12-year old Grandson drives my cars on private roads whenever possible.
In fact, his schoolfriends could not quite believe him when, after being asked what he did that weekend, said that he had driven his Grandad's BMW 7-series on some tarmac rally tests at up to 65 mph, which was true (he was marshalling with my buddy whilst I was competing).
He has also driven both my rally cars on disused airfields and along a friend's farm tracks.
By the time he is legally allowed on the roads he should be very experienced and excellent car control skills. Hopefully, his continued exposure to motorsport will show him that driving in a 'chav' manner on the roads is not needed or helpful to his driving career.


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