Safe Speed Forums

Hello Fisherman,

Jacks dad here. thanks for the advice earlier. i have started a new topic because someone decided to use my last post to attack the magistrates court system. although i do understand some of his venting, you do hear of some very silly things going on.

the fact that we did not reply until the 3 weeks after we recieved the letter didnt help our memory but would this go against us? we did talk about it straight away and then put it in the "to do" pile! secondly how diligent can one be. i mean, no we didnt check phone records and such, but then again i am not a detective. i havent got phone bills going back 6 months now anyway, but are they likely to have investigated this themselves, and our bank statements etc to check did we stop for petrol or where had we been?! do they or can they in their investigation check these things? if they do what does that cost for each person who is not sherlock holmes!!??!!

we are not criminals but both hardworking parents with good jobs. we both have clean licenses (i once got 3 points 5 years ago) for 17 years
so we are not on 9 points or anything trying to avoid a ban.

will they in their "investigation" be more diligent than us. if so and they prove anything and they rightfully prove who could of been driving i assume i would be found guilty.

what would most likely be the punishment and will i have a "criminal record"?

does lack of dilgance prove or imply an attempt to decieve?

sorry to be pain but if you are a magistrate you know the answers

i dont what to sound meodramatic or anything but when you mentioned phone records and such i thought well i dont know. i sure the criminally minded would not be phased by this especially on such a minor charge but this is all new to me.

i assume this is their main hope that most people just take it to avoid the worry and aggrevation. i do not want to come across principled here.

thanks in advance for you advice

jacks dad

They will not do any investigation.
The charge is fail to supply. So all they need to demonstrate is that they have a reason for asking and that you were given a reasonable time in which to reply but failed to do so.
In court you will get achance to say what you have done to find out who was driving. If the court decide that what you did amounts to reasonable diligence you will get a not guilty verdict.


IF found guilty, a fine according to means with a starting point of about £200 for someone on average income with average outgoings, court costs which for a simple trial in my area would be about £100 although that does vary from county to county and 3 points.


The criminal record issue is a bit more difficult. IF found guilty you will have a conviction but most motoring offences are not usually recorded as crimes.
You would need to consider the exact wording of any question. If it asks "have you any convictions?" the answer would be yes. If it asks "do you have a criminal record?" the answer would probably be no.



That would depend on the individual circumstances. Almost always not. But I do know of one defendant who told us he makes a deliberate point of forgetting who was driving and who the passengers are as soon as he gets out of the car. That was not well recieved.


When s172 first came in the ticket offices believed just about everybody who said they couldn't remember. Then a number of internet sites got hold of that and publicised it. As a consequence lots of people developed a poor memory for motoring matters. So these days all "can't remember" cases go to court.

On the other hand, if you're telling lies and they CAN prove it, you're looking at conspiracy to pervert. There are serious brownie points for that.

if they dont investigate how can the PROVE anything.
this seems to be the fundemental flaw with this law.

they give you 28 days to respond, which also gives you 28 days to forget if you dont deal with it as soon as you recieve it.

in my case i recieved the 9 days or so after the event. didnt open it straight away. when i did my wife and i discussed it very breifly asking each other if we can remember being flashed, couldnt so decided we would write back asking to see the photo. we did this towards the end of the 28 day. now you are talkinganout 5 weeks. several weeks later we get the photo and still cant see who it is (i mean this photo is useless!!)
so we write back and forget about it. weeks later they tell us it will go to the courts. over a 10 to 12 week period we forget all about it let alone the event in question. then its court.

fisherman, as you say we could use this and that to find out, but we didnt
i have pleaded now and the question of who it was is irrelevent now so even if i accept that i could now do this and that.

what we did do though was assistance teh police by attempting to identify by the photo. we couldnt. we sent them the insurance showing that there are two drivers of the car. that didnt matter

it all justs seems so wrong!! the fact we havent tried to prove innocence but not accepted guilt is surely not our problem.

how hard is one expected to go to help the police. didnt we show diligence in asking to see the photo?

It would be impossible for them to ask everybody in the UK if they were driving your car. So its your duty to try to find out. An easy defence is there for those who use reasonable diligence.

Something similar happens with no insurance. They have to prove that the car was being used (or kept) in circumstances where insurance is required and that you have been given some time to produce a certificate. If you don't do so then its down to you to prove you were covered.



Its not a question of proving innocence. In the event that a driver is named they still need to prove the speeding, or red light jumping or whatever the original alleged offence was.
All you need to do is use reasonable diligence in trying to find out who was driving.