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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 22:40 
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Quote:
"the court has consistently imposed upon the drivers of cars a high burden
to reflect the fact that the car is potentially a dangerous weapon."



An aside, but am I the only person that finds the repeated naming of cars as weapons irritating? Yes they can be used as a weapon just as an ironing board could be, however that is not the designed intent and failure to use a tool correctly does not make it a weapon.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 23:02 
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toltec wrote:
failure to use a tool correctly does not make it a weapon.


So the missus tells me

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 00:03 
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toltec wrote:
Quote:
"the court has consistently imposed upon the drivers of cars a high burden
to reflect the fact that the car is potentially a dangerous weapon."



An aside, but am I the only person that finds the repeated naming of cars as weapons irritating? Yes they can be used as a weapon just as an ironing board could be, however that is not the designed intent and failure to use a tool correctly does not make it a weapon.


No.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 08:07 
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R1Nut wrote:
toltec wrote:
failure to use a tool correctly does not make it a weapon.


So the missus tells me


you nearly caused a keyboard/coffee interface incident :rotfl:

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 08:13 
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toltec wrote:
An aside, but am I the only person that finds the repeated naming of cars as weapons irritating? Yes they can be used as a weapon just as an ironing board could be, however that is not the designed intent and failure to use a tool correctly does not make it a weapon.


The term usually used is "potential weapon" which seems eminently reasonable. That is why pocket knives are banned on aeroplanes. Though designed as tools they are potential weapons. Mind you so are those glass clubs filled with flammable liquid which we are encouraged to buy at the duty free shop.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 08:16 
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toltec wrote:
R1Nut wrote:
toltec wrote:
failure to use a tool correctly does not make it a weapon.


So the missus tells me


you nearly caused a keyboard/coffee interface incident :rotfl:



I already had one... :hehe:

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 08:18 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
toltec wrote:
An aside, but am I the only person that finds the repeated naming of cars as weapons irritating? Yes they can be used as a weapon just as an ironing board could be, however that is not the designed intent and failure to use a tool correctly does not make it a weapon.


The term usually used is "potential weapon" which seems eminently reasonable. That is why pocket knives are banned on aeroplanes. Though designed as tools they are potential weapons. Mind you so are those glass clubs filled with flammable liquid which we are encouraged to buy at the duty free shop.



Ach.. but the real weapon has to be the person who has the malice or the stupidity in mind to make it into a weapon.. ja oder nein?

Ach.. the kittens need to feed. Und then I will need to rest up again as still a poorly cat really.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 19:55 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
toltec wrote:
An aside, but am I the only person that finds the repeated naming of cars as weapons irritating? Yes they can be used as a weapon just as an ironing board could be, however that is not the designed intent and failure to use a tool correctly does not make it a weapon.


The term usually used is "potential weapon" which seems eminently reasonable. That is why pocket knives are banned on aeroplanes. Though designed as tools they are potential weapons. Mind you so are those glass clubs filled with flammable liquid which we are encouraged to buy at the duty free shop.


To become a weapon an item, be it a newspaper, bunch of keys, tin of beans or vehicle needs to be used with intent to harm. You acknowledge the absurdity of what can be defined as a weapon or not above.

The number of pedestrian incidents where the driver had intent to harm is hopefully very small. This does not mean drivers should not be held responsible for careful use of 'potentially dangerous machinery', however the use of the term weapon is emotive and implies an intent which does not really exist. The responsibility is not only one sided, one must take care of ones own safety in areas where you know potential dangerous machinery is being used or potentially hazardous operations are being carried out.

As a stretched analogy consider chainsaws, wandering through a crowd with a running chainsaw is not reasonable, however making sure that someone using one sees you well before you are in reach, if not avoiding them entirely, would seem excellent common sense. The chainsaw user must make sure they are aware of their surroundings (given the loss of senses due to safety gear) and they are visibly clear to wield it, at the same time a rambler should not hide behind or climb trees in a woodland being logged let alone go running blindly through bushes.

If around 95% of vehicle incidents are down to driver inattention then it seems reasonable that those same people on foot will also fail to pay attention. For some reason road safety arguments forget drivers and pedestrians are not separate species, one is actually a subset of the other. It might be more correct and even useful to see vehicles as error amplifiers rather than instruments of random destruction.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 20:06 
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toltec wrote:
It might be more correct and even useful to see vehicles as error amplifiers rather than instruments of random destruction.



Yup, and the faster they go the more any error is amplified.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 20:58 
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Quote:
To become a weapon an item, be it a newspaper, bunch of keys, tin of beans or vehicle needs to be used with intent to harm. You acknowledge the absurdity of what can be defined as a weapon or not above.


That argues an AK47 or a cruise missile is not a weapon until after it has been fired. By that definition the only weapons that the US forces posses are a few assault rifles and machine guns and that the armies of most smaller nations have no weapons at all. That rather negates the concept of international treaties on arms limitations.

I would rather suggest that if an artefact is designed with the primary purpose of killing people or animals it should be called a weapon even when it is locked away. So, no, a car or a bottle of whiskey is only a potential weapon. An up and over shotgun is a weapon even if it only used to break clays.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 21:10 
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weepej wrote:
toltec wrote:
It might be more correct and even useful to see vehicles as error amplifiers rather than instruments of random destruction.



Yup, and the faster they go the more any error is amplified.


And allowing more space and time damps them out as does actively allowing for others errors and protecting oneself against them. Higher speeds quite possibly promote active error correction due to the perceived risk, low speeds may promote a false sense of security. I was told that the perceived risk of injury/death had to rise as high as one in seven before people started to modify their habits, this was by an SCP senior project manager btw.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 21:27 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Quote:
To become a weapon an item, be it a newspaper, bunch of keys, tin of beans or vehicle needs to be used with intent to harm. You acknowledge the absurdity of what can be defined as a weapon or not above.


That argues an AK47 or a cruise missile is not a weapon until after it has been fired. By that definition the only weapons that the US forces posses are a few assault rifles and machine guns and that the armies of most smaller nations have no weapons at all. That rather negates the concept of international treaties on arms limitations.

I would rather suggest that if an artefact is designed with the primary purpose of killing people or animals it should be called a weapon even when it is locked away. So, no, a car or a bottle of whiskey is only a potential weapon. An up and over shotgun is a weapon even if it only used to break clays.


But I do archery . some of us shoot clay pigeon.

All of the Swiss males who live in Switzerland have to have guns und explosive (if so trained) in house.

Und NO.. I am not in favour. I vote NO NO NO in each referenda in this matter. :popcorn: Swiss are not chocolate truffles nor clockworked models.. but perhaps a OTT withit all . :popcorn:

NOTE . I not say right or wrong here :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 21:37 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Quote:
To become a weapon an item, be it a newspaper, bunch of keys, tin of beans or vehicle needs to be used with intent to harm. You acknowledge the absurdity of what can be defined as a weapon or not above.


That argues an AK47 or a cruise missile is not a weapon until after it has been fired. By that definition the only weapons that the US forces posses are a few assault rifles and machine guns and that the armies of most smaller nations have no weapons at all. That rather negates the concept of international treaties on arms limitations.

I would rather suggest that if an artefact is designed with the primary purpose of killing people or animals it should be called a weapon even when it is locked away. So, no, a car or a bottle of whiskey is only a potential weapon. An up and over shotgun is a weapon even if it only used to break clays.


Sorry, I thought it was implicit that the items I was referring to were not those designed specifically as weapons.

Sharpened bicycle spokes have been used to kill people, that makes bikes multiple weapon delivery systems ;) Potentially that is...

It is over and under btw.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 22:06 
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toltec wrote:
It is over and under btw.


Collapse of stout party :D

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 22:43 
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weepej wrote:
toltec wrote:
It might be more correct and even useful to see vehicles as error amplifiers rather than instruments of random destruction.



Yup, and the faster they go the more any error is amplified.


Applies to runners. skateboarder. CYCLISTS.

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Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 22:55 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
toltec wrote:
It is over and under btw.


Collapse of stout party :D


I am slender .. but have been advised to drink stout as recent events leave me with pernicious anaemia und all the nasties associated... :( with added twists und stings too :( ]


Have to say .. I rather like the idea of Guiness :drink2: :drink: :drink2: though :D

Hey .. I look to the light here, Please not to dim this light for me?

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 23:34 
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Wow, another debate about semantics. SS should really host a language-related forum for those who aren't really interested in talking about road safety.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 00:11 
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WildCat wrote:
weepej wrote:
toltec wrote:
It might be more correct and even useful to see vehicles as error amplifiers rather than instruments of random destruction.



Yup, and the faster they go the more any error is amplified.


Applies to runners. skateboarder. CYCLISTS.


Of course it applies to cyclists, did I ever suggest it didn't?

That's a very strange bee in your bonnet.


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 Post subject: Split thread
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 01:15 
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This topic has been split off from here.

Toltec, you can amend the thread title as you see fit.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 03:16 
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If you beat somebody over the head with a glass ashtray, it is a weapon.
If it sat on the table being used as an ashtray, it is not.

There are very few instances of people setting out to deliberately run down a victim with intent to kill, so to describe a vehicle as a weapon is wrong in nearly ALL cases.

HOWEVER if it WERE a weapon, then a speed camera is the wrong tool for preventing it's use!

Under what circumstances would gun crime be combated by cameras and penalties sent out by post a week later? :shock:

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