Safe Speed Forums

Well done to the lorry driver who knocked down what looked like a red light camera on the A4 Sutton Court road, London, today, as well as a section of barrier.

I hope he didn't suffer any injury from the experience!

Oh good - I mean, terrible! That must be an extremely profitable one. It's the first traffic light junction one comes to when driving in on the M4, and during the day there's a lot of traffic there for a simple crossroads. To be fair, it is at least vehicle-actuated, which means that you don't get six lanes of traffic being held at night for no reason. But red light cameras in general are still unacceptable, even though jumping red lights is fundamentally bad in a way that speeding never will be (no matter how much they try to make us think otherwise).

It's a junction between a huge, important, 6-lane trunk road and a tiny residential road, which makes you think "Should there really be lights here at all?", but I can't really see another solution which deals adequately with those needing to turn right onto the A4. Maybe that's one to ask about on SABRE.

Going into London on the A4, I'm pretty sure there are cameras on every crossroads between the M4 and the A3220 (and plenty more either side of that stretch). There's no doubt in my mind that red light cameras are sited where there's most traffic, rather than where it's most dangerous to jump the lights (not that it's ever safe of course). I'm sure that doesn't surprise many here.

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Paul Smith: a legend.

"The freedom provided by the motor vehicle is not universally applauded, however: there are those who resent the loss of state control over individual choice that the car represents. Such people rarely admit their prejudices openly; instead, they make false or exaggerated claims about the adverse effects of road transport in order to justify calls for higher taxation or restrictions on mobility." (Conservative Way Forward: Stop The War Against Drivers)

So you support breaking the speed limit (an assumption based on your presence here), and running red lights. What motoring laws do you support?

Nicycle, my advice is to ignore the poster above, as he's a known troll (you could probably tell that from the content of the post anyway). See my previous warnings here and here. Obviously what you do is up to you but forewarned is forearmed.

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Paul Smith: a legend.

"The freedom provided by the motor vehicle is not universally applauded, however: there are those who resent the loss of state control over individual choice that the car represents. Such people rarely admit their prejudices openly; instead, they make false or exaggerated claims about the adverse effects of road transport in order to justify calls for higher taxation or restrictions on mobility." (Conservative Way Forward: Stop The War Against Drivers)

Cheers, but I'll still reply:

I don't agree with red light jumping. But I do know that I drive differently around red light cameras on the A12 Eastern Avenue on my weekly commuter. I'll slow down to 30mph in case it changes on me, rather than keeping going 50mph. I have to spot the cameras at each junction. If a light turns red I'm far more likely to slow down, using harsher braking than I use anywhere else (If I have to brake at more than 30 mph, I've failed to anticipate the road conditions). I'll also stare at the light a lot more, panic if it turns on me even though i'm seconds off it flashing. I imagine all this is increasing my chances of being rear ended and could wind up a more experienced driver behind me.

I understand the need for enforcement, but a camera isn't going to stop a dangerous driver and cannot see the circumstances. There was the well-known case of a person disobeying a red light to let an ambulance past. You're not meant to do this, but if the ambulance driver is blaring the siren, are you just gonna sit it out? Also someone might have a particularly nasty tailgater behind them. I know I've been forced into going faster than I've wanted on roads where the limit is higher than I've considered a safe speed for me to be, despite the fact I'd slow down for them if they overtook and will move to the left where a road gets wider. I don't usually speed unless there's a clear safety benefit as I don't want to be caught, but sometimes I'm more tempted to go faster then be rear ended.

Assumption is the mother of all f*ck up's.
However if being a member here means that we all automatically support the breaking of speed limits regardless, then you'll no doubt be asking Admin to remove your uneducated & self righteous ar$e forthwith.

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What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?

So you slow down in anticipation of a potential hazard (a light turning red). Surely that's to be applauded, and not seen as some kind of negative behaviour. A more experienced driver behind you will understand why you are slowing down.



I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that most people here are pro speed and anti camera, wouldn't you?

Explain "pro speed".

Is that just moving, moving in keeping with the rest of the traffic, making progress when there is no other traffic, deliberately setting out to drive faster than the posted limit, or not worrying unduly if we stray over the posted limit briefly and dont sustain that practice, or driving along narrow country lanes at the posted NSL simply because it indicates that we can, and it gets the adrenaline flowing?

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Maybe it means to be in favour of a form of illegal stimulant?

Pro speed yes, when used in the right way. As with millions of other people in the UK I’d like to be able to make my own judgement about the environment in which I’m driving, and using the correct speed within that environment. I don’t need speed cameras to tell me that now, just the same as I didn’t 10 years ago.

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Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

Perhaps the Government could downgrade it like cannabis.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

I slow down because of the camera, and obvious lack of synchronisation with the previous lights. Were it not there, I'd go along at 50mph and if it's too late to stop with gentle braking, keep on going. I wouldn't lose so much energy, waste a lot of petrol, wear down the car some more, have no risk of being rear ended, and be clear of the junction for any cars, if any at about 5am on saturday mornings, wish to join the A12. I wish there was some kind of syncronisation, even if it meant driving on at well under 50mph, it'd still get me there in the same time with less fuel usage and wear and tear.

Why can't they have some kind of warning system when traffic lights are used on roads with speed > 30mph? Wouldn't this make the road safer?

Wurzelling Gumdrops - given that so many cyclists justify red light jumping on the basis that it cause them to loose "momentum" und even justify und blame driver when it all go pear-shaped - I would not pull the "holier than thou" routine.

I suspect set up of this cam ist like some we have come across.

In series of lights... close together - but not synchronised to a green flow which would disperse traffic quickly - you sometimes find one will have a red light cam. This type whether with a cam or not - create congestion ... und some of this type do change quickly - even setting the cam to trig on amber given the timing setting.

But in any case - I am of the type who approaches all junctions with caution .. I do not accelerate to "beat lights". Green only means I can proceed if safe to do so in any case.

However, I do recall reading of one case - successfully contested after a fight. It was not in press.. it was chap on t'internet sporty car forum couple of years ago.. He stopped when lights change on him as he approaching. He stops. Only his front wheels over the white line. He got NIP accusing him of jumping the lights. He fight it when he get the photos.. und they agreed that it was perhaps unreasonable given the timing sequence und where he was at split second these lights changed.

That why "rule by scam" not such a good idea.

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

There's plenty of American data out there these days that shows that rear end accidents increase notably once red light cameras are installed. Some states are in the process of removing them all again.

What I don't like about them is that without a red light camera should the light change after you've crossed the point of no return (or rather, point of no sensible stopping) then you're going to be across the junction before the side road's lights change and allow traffic in, it's only when you deliberately run a red light that you could have stopped for that you actually run the risk of driving into the side of someone.

However with a red light camera, the person who is law abiding but is caught out by bad timing is now forced to do an emergency stop to avoid prosecution. This is bad enough on it's own but they're almost certain to get rear ended (especially in London) as a reward for trying to obey the letter of the law, since we all know that camera partnerships wont accept being tailgated as a valid excuse.

Sadly, with the increase of these cameras it seems many drivers now speed up on amber, because they can't/dont want to do an emergency stop but they also want to get through before it changes to avoid prosecution. Surely this is worse than just cruising through without changing speed?

Plus the old 'people no longer getting out of the way of ambulances' thing with red light cameras....

If I know there's a scam there - I just keep it slow and steady. Sisters tell me that most of the A580 red light cams are also speed cams and they've noted the speed measure lines across the junction

The worst one I've seen on the A580 and the girls told me about this one and sent us along the A580 to check it out.. was at Atherleigh Way which seems to let one car throught and then ping those in the process of setting off and accelerating gently.. It stayed on a red signal for 6 long minutes.. now four long minutes We think a scam as folk would be tempted to carry on regardless given the long waits of engineered congestion there

I think there's a cycle path alongside and a cyclist could be "done" if a saw them ignore their red light

We mentioned this in posts in the past and Paul was of the opinion that the timing was far too short to be classed as a traffic light signal.

Oh.. we know this and wrote letters to complain. I gather it has a slightly longer green time now.. as it lets three cars through on the A580 and has an abnomally long green time for those joining the A580 from this road which seems to go to Leigh, Hindley and Atherton ..hardly tourist hot spots ..

I think martin and handy will know of this junction. It's a daft one alright

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If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

By the way ...wurzel ..

We have chatted on PH with you ..(both me and my wife Wildy who calls you "Liebchen and Gummidge Gum drops" in "purr." fun )


Wimmin..

I trust you do not take offence by Wildy's playfulness.

I think you should be aware though that folk on this site do not match your "prejudgement" and you should read all points of view passed here. Most of it is to do with "how we can improve standards" as we know automated enforcement does nothing.. and achieves nothing other than a "Pavlovian doggie" effect on sight of a scam of any kind

We all support COAST and this COAST forms the basis of Driver Improvement/Speed Aware schemes.. per the proof we've already posted from the Lancs and other schemes. If COAST is good enough for those enforcing the law and offering this in the training/corrective training .. then it's "peer reviewed and VALID"


We explore ideas on this site and more or less discuss them reasonably.

Making a comment which implies all here "want to speed or drive dangerously" does to my mind come under the "ad hominem/prejudge without bothering to read properly as the prejudice clouds judgement

The opposite in fact. I think you may find the safe speed brigade to be below the speed limit more than often and having a "ball" where they can and ae allowed to

We do not do "stupid or dangerous" and if someone does advocate "daft" - then Paul always showed them the "ban door" I think Claire will be like-minded.

Discuss seriously by all means. We do not at all advocate silliness out there .. nor condone either.

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.