Safe Speed Forums

Just heard two stories on the BBC news just now. Both being investigated by the IPCC as routine.

1. Chadderton area of Manchester. Allegdly a routine patrol in the wee small hours. Police follow a car. It does a runner - crashes into a wall. Three young occupants are dead at the scene. A fourth in hospital. Car was reportedly stolen.

2. M1. Derbyshire police following a stolen car. He loses control and crashes. Again - no other innocent involved.

Reports all stressed "pursued by police" .

Well .. what are we supposed to do? Smile sweetly and let them continue? After all a camera and CCTV? We do'n't need police to "make them drive into the wall they would have hit anyway" Yep. Well - we really will find them and bring them to book when they stole the ruddy car in the first place

A thug is a thug. Sure I'd rather get them to a court in this world rather than the one in the next one. But the police following these young louts do not cause them to crash. They have the choice to stop as instructed after all.

If we do not stop them and they then kill someone - then we are also held to account for not doing our job as the public would like.

We do try to rein them in by boxing them in in a team worked op if we can. But Durham/N Yorks are perhaps luckier than most in that both still have a fairly well resourced RPU. Elsewhere - as well trained as here - but sadly perhaps not as well resourced. In fairness to GMP - they tried to rein in a rogue biker and received an unfair criticism when he also killed himself by colliding with another car.

So what are we supposed to do? Assume the idiot in a car has "an experienced driver/IAM/ whatever.. right to speed at any speed he feels like" (we do not ignore these either - but they do usually stop as instructed ) or trust our gut feeling and the "dreaded/dratted database" that the bloke in that car is a "wrong'un" and then beat ourselves up because that driver's own red mist and fey nature managed to cause him hit a wall or a tree?

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

In Gear= for years I have maintained that there should be some legislation between from either the Government or CC or both that they should make it that if anyone who doesnt stop for a police car that gets behind them and they are requested to stop by illumination of lights and sirens. And they make off and engage in any driving which endangers the officers or any other member of public,then they will be held responsible for anything that occurrs . This will make it easier for any person or body investigating such incidents,but no one has got the bottle to do this and this is why we are in such a poor state and every man and his dog trying to hold us accountable. It is sad when incidents like this ends in such tragedy,but they only have got themselves to blame,when they engage in such dangerous behaviour in someone elses property.

I agree with what both of you have said. I know there are pursuit regs and it will get to the stage where all a criminal has to do to escape is to drive 1 mph above a posted limit and the safety nannies will insist it is called off. I'd argue a criminal being killed or seriously injured in a pursuit should be considered an occupational hazard. But there is also the problem that with other people in the car you can't guarantee they knew what was going on and could be innocent parties.

Perhaps criminals should be pursued by unmarked pursuit cars and then the stop should be carried out in front of them rather than behind, if that makes sense? I also think having unmarked patrol cars which specialise in dealing with bad driving would be quite useful as marked police cars invariably cause a change in behaviour but having unmarked ones means people would be generally observed behaving naturally.

Though I'm often accused of being a wishy-washy liberal by some friends when it comes to incidents like this you'll not find me shedding a tear. Indeed I'm a great supporter of the Darwin Awards way of looking at things especially dead car thieves.

We have a society that is constantly undermined by a large minority who are 'shameless'. Our efforts to stop people falling through the cracks with a welfare state has only managed to institutionalise shamelessness among people who might once have been forced to take heed of social taboos.

Ironically it's not like they're completely stupid, they're savvy enough to know how to play the legal game if caught and how to milking the benefits system so they are clearly smart enough to make a positive contribution to society and to take responsibility. Poverty and immorality do not go hand in hand. We must find ways to stop institutionalising the shamelessness that leads to dead car thieves and much much worse. It is slowly killing our society.

Today my sympathy is for those who had their cars nicked and the cops who are now going to have lots of questions to answer and the emergency services who had to clean up the mess. I might not have shed a tear but doubtless some car owners in these circumstances will carry the burden of those deaths on their shoulders convinced if they have locked the car up better this wouldn't have happened.

Barkstar

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The difference between intelligence and stupidity is that intelligence has limits.

In Gear, as far as I am concerned, you do not have to defend the Police in these sorts of situations.
These people made their own decisions, to break the law, to ignore a legal order to stop, to drive like idiots.
I was watching Essex Interceptors yesterday, and one cretin decided to make off in his car when the Police started to follow him. He crashed.
The Police were extremely unhappy to find that he had his G/F and their three very young children in the car as well, and said if they had known, they would have called off the pursuit.
Sadly, the Police are not clairvoyant, neither can they see through metal, so at the end, if these other people had been injured or worse, it would have been the fault of the escaping driver, who was subsequently caught.
If I see blue lights behind me, I would rather stop, than take the risk of killing someone else, but there again, I have respect for other life.

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Semper in excreta, nur quantitat variat.

I agree. Our last guv did suggest such when we got hammered in 2002 v 2001 stat returns!


News still bangs on - with an implied suggestion that the police were to blame by pursuing. Manchester case - allegedly burst into flames when it hit the wall. :scratcchchin:

As said in another thread whereby one such thug was jailed by a decent judge - no one forced these fools to steal the car and we do not goad them to speed either. They see us and ignore our request to stop.. or worse still - accelerate away at high speed leaving us no choice but to try to catch .. before such tragedy or even worse tragedy occur.

(Having said that - we had one incident back in the summer whereby the team had successfully boxed in a stolen car - only for him to ram the central reserve - and it resulted in HIS killing of an innocent. Of course - the press loved "cops cause crash" headlines when the story was, in fact, nothing of the sort

Commiserations to Manchester police and my sincere respect and regard to the police officers who were just doing their normal job. They have nothing to reproach themselves over.




We do use what Wildy calls "stealthmobiles". These are out and about doing this sort of work. We usually try to keep one on our stretch of the A1M though as this is where we usually catch out serious offenders (and they usually have done something else as well ) The rest "lurk" Our marke cars, admittedly, stimulate "best behaviour" in everyone else ... Some object to unmarkeds as they see these in much the same way as the "hidden Gatso"

We have tried the stop from the front. These types can be so brazen and stupid that they will deliberately ram through a road block at times though. We've even had some continue even when we ripped the tyres with a stinger


I once had one ram the rear of my car. Repeated tailgating and ramming of me. I have to say it took a lot of concentration to hold that car steady on each shunt. I admit that I was worried at the time because you just felt this poor vehicle (was a Vauxhall Cavalier at the time .. actually they are quite strong cars) simply shake. Eventually - was able to slow it down and colleagues boxed him in. This incident was quite some years ago. Was with the Met at the time .. so we going back a few years! Argghhh.. gettin' old... disgracefully!

True Barkstar and dratsabasti . We are not clairvoyant and folk whose cars are stolen and even those who are burgled - always wonder if they could have prevented.

Sure - we all take measures to ensure our property remains in our possession - but a these thieves will always find a way around any security measures .. some of their motivation is just the "hyena" mentality.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

I'd argue that three dead thieves is a good result. I suspect that very few of these vermin kill themselves the first time they steal a car and they should he locked up and forced to do useful work the first time they are caught.

This was once most peoples opinion. You run from the law and crash, tough poo.

But I've noticed what I think In Gears on about, the slant in reporting nowadays that the police are somewhat culpable when the muppet they're chasing trashes it.

Personally I think it's probably another facet of the breakdown in police/public relationship, that the police are seen as fairer game to bash by the media, evan when they're not wrong.

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Fear is a weapon of mass distraction

True. Damned whatever we do.

I happen to think it's got worse since the mass belief in a speed camera. Claims that this has "freed police time" do not help when folk out there feel aggrieved at not being a "prioirty" Plus the demand for "immediate action" when needing our services. We do try - but we have to assess the urgency of each situation. If the thief has already burgled and fled the scene - then we will not catch him in th act. Thus we will send an offiicer to take a statement and any fingerprints later rather than sooner. I know that the victims of these crimes will want to start clearing up the mess left and establish exactly what has been stolen apart from the "obviously missing items" Since we know that these yobs will hit again as soon as insurers replace the goods - we can only hope that advice as to crime prevention work. We try to prioritise these victims after the reported burglary - and RPU do try to schedule in drives around areas which report in a spate of burglaries as this would perhaps be the work of one organised gang. We try to nail such obvious crime patterns

Get anything a bit wrong - and we get splashed over the front pages in wailed sexed up wrath. Get things a lot wrong and blimey!


I would say it has worsened since millions who find themselves on the wrong flash of a Gatso some 14 days or so after the event bubble over in heated rage, than in the days when "we had nowt better to do than hunt down the odd sneaky press on the accelerator on a crackling bit of road ! "

I will state for the record that I do not condone the actions of the police officer who "tested his car without clearing with base". We have to. It has always been so here. We even lost our Inspector when he failed to clear a test site with a host Force. It was an afterthought. He thought clearing his spur of the moment intent on the spot was enough - but it wasn't. We successfully challenged a NIP in Cleveland when an officer was pinged when going to take a statement from a key witness who was seriously ill but able to make a statement whilst in one of their hospitals.


We were able to prove the need for urgency in that case.

When we are in training sessions on the public roads. I will say we have to train with the public as our real life and live shouts mean we will have to deal with members of the public and do so safely - without causing too much annyoyance to them. I thus do not condone the Over Kellett affair on that basis. Such matters do bring us into disrepute and give cause for concerns and long searching questions. Rightly so

.
But BBC news gave me an update on this story whilst I was cleaning the cars and bikes and bicycles .

The Vauxhall Vectra in question had jumped a red light. Perhaps why the police officers decided to pull. It seems the car accelerated hard away from them and it became a full pursuit. I know that GMP officers will follow the same set procedures as Durham and N Yorks - or should I say all 43 forces do follow the same core procedures They will have completed various checks on this vehicle and perhaps ascertained that the car was stolen or strongly suspected of being stolen or unregistered to DVLA. Routine checks and yes - I am more than aware than databases are not correct - but we still have to check such things all the same.

A local resident was interviewed for the BBC. I heard him say on each news bulletin that he "heard a loud bang at half past three in the morning." He thought a gas explosion at first. Then he saw the car .. upside down and on fire. A young girl was still alive in the back seat. The others (all young men as I understand ) were dead. The girl is reported as being in a "critical condition"

Now yes .. once upon a time - tough if they got killed whilst fleeing from police. We always had to abort pursuits if they risk the lives of the inncocent public at large. We also have to abandon these days if we run a risk of the pursued injuring himself and his passengers. In the past - if they died whilst running from us - it was "good shuttance"

Police officers though are human beings. We have our own kids. We know that our own kids will challenge us just the same as any other child. Each time - you feel sorrow and pity at the crass stupid folly of youthful red misted hormones and mixed up emotions and society's general failure to accept its duty in guiding parental discipline..

Maybe collectively - we do not do enough. But then chastise someone else's child and you as good as punch them in the jaw!


All police officers feel helpless and upset when a pursuit like these result in tragedy of any death - including the youngsters in these stolen cars and unregistered "chavmobiles" to use a Wildy-ism.

I perhaps spit into the hurricane force storm when I suggest to these youngsters that choosing life - even if that life means a jail term - is better than dying stupidly/for a stupid reason

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

In Gear, there needs to be regs for you guys to follow, but you have to stop these people. I consider their crashes as collateral damage. If you don't stop them all that will happen is as soon as anyone gets into a car they become untouchable then the roads become lawless. I don't know what percentage of tugs, or what ever you call them, end up in chases and what percentage of those end in fatal crashes, but I expect it's fairly low and think the risk to public safety at large is worth it.

I would agree that the people in the car were responsible for thier own demise. However, with almost every production car capable of 120mph there is an unnacceptable risk to the rest of the public of such high speed close persuits.

In particular where there are insuffcient resourses for a proper stop it is better to let them get away this time rather than risk a major urban crash.

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

Hi Adam... we do have regs .. we call it "management" Our teams keep them informed at all times. I cannot speak for all police force procedures - but here - the team will agree to call off a pursuit if it shows signs of real danger to all on the roads. Depends on the area - but the more "urban" - the more the chav idiot emerges.

Anton ..

Controversially speaking here

I do wonder at times if BRAKE have it correct when they suggest limiting cars to a set speed of say.. 80 mph but would suggest a facility to over-ride if car taken to Germany. Track cars are different beasts. of course


It's tricky and it's a hard call when we know that calling off a pursuit and carnage still occurring leads us police into another set of hard questioning by a public who rightly demand these answers. We tend to call off on the basis that we can pick them up again later and pull them in.

But in this case.. a deliberate acceleration and I gather this GMP pursuit lasted about two miles .. and the Derbyshire one a similar distance. So at high speed - we are talking just minutes here.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

As one poster to the MEN site on this sad story obsereve.. "no one forced the the driver to jump the red light and then drive off like that"



The MEN waxes lyrical about the "victims" and makes much of BRAKE commetning that 27 dead through police pursuits makes GMP "bad cops"

Excuse me .. but GMP serves a huge area.. some of the roughest of the roughest of thugs inhabit that city. They have it hard and tough there in reality

I note that the tabloids comment that one of the deceased (rosy cheeked "cherub") had in fact been recently released from prison for carrying out an armed robbery on a security van

Whilst I do feel for his family .. I have to accept that he was no "cherub" and that his flight or panic might have been to do with fear given his past record. I am saying I am prepared to understand a "panic attack" to some extent .. but one does wonder why this driver took off? Was the "cherub" who was learning to drive .. but not insured to drive the long term hire car .. doing the driving? Or had the driver had one too many at the night club? Something caused this panic towards tragedy.

I also not that the IPCC concluded that the police officer was correct in procedure at all times and has nothing to blame himself for. All the same he will.

WHY

Because he is a human being who gives a damn about others

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If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

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Smily to penny.. penny to pound
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But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
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I have quoted out of sequence .. Ah well.




I have to say that I have posted up most of this "grim" toll. Out of the 27 .. 95% involved the unlicenced and illegal fool.

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

From today's issue




I have to wonder still .. why did he bolt? WHO was driving? The uninsured learner or the one who had hired the car. How much had they drunk?

They must have had some reason for their action. GMP not to blame at all.

I feel for the girls more. They accepted a lift in all innocence here. Trusting innocents.

Oh.. what can be worse .. a driving ban for one too many or a life with learning curve? I know which I would choose. Regardless of the "shame of declaring for 11 years." I have to say .. I do not. I do not drink and drive. Both me and my wife are really rather "goody two shoes" most of the time :urgggggghhhhhh!

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

FYI it looks like there were people in this car who were totally innocent in all of this and did nothing more than accept a lift home...

Harsh though it may seem I stand by my general thoughts on these incidents.

The Darwin Awards are aimed at those who remove themselves from the gene pool through stupidity or folly. Would you accept a lift from complete strangers at 3am? Would it be unwise to do so?

I don't doubt all the families have been affected most grievously - but that is personal grief and not mine - we need to stay objective however uncaring that may seem.

It was refreshing that in another recent fatal crash near where I live that the uncle of one of the dead lads instead of the usual 'he was a lovely lad etc etc' made it clear he thought the lad had been stupid and that he'd pleaded with him just days before not to get involved in car crime.

Barkstar

_________________
The difference between intelligence and stupidity is that intelligence has limits.

An update. I think it explains why this driver took off in the manner that he did.





Somehow, I cannot feel any sense of sorrow or regret at the loss of a young life. The other young man had also recently been released from prison for his part in an armed robbery according to yesterday's "Sexpress/Waily"





Oh .. how I wish they had.



So without insurance then?

The police officer was allegedly more than 200 yards behind this person when he lost control in a dip in the road.

I am pleased that the IPCC found no cause for concern. What are they supposed to do? The new GMP boss - CC Fahy is quoted in the Manchester press as stating that the police will have to follow up these dangerous drivers .. lest they cause more deaths. The pursuits follow proper management and use of GMP's aircraft to keep tabs in a serious pursuit .. keeping tabs on the offending car so that the RPU can manage to bring it to a close safely.

I cannot feel much sense of loss .. even though I know that a foster child of the past could well have ended up in such a situation. But he was lucky. He was released to our care and I admit to using reasoned force to restrain him at one point. It worked. He never dared thereafter


I agree Barkstar .. they are always "lovely lads" or "bubbly fun loving boys and girls". I know to family and friends .. they will be.

But still, these two lads were not exactly legal types nor what we would deem to be "drinking mates" - and the 30 year old? Of course his family are in a state of mourning .. but society as whole does not feel the same way.. especially the victims of his crimes. Part of me wants to say society failed them. The foster carer part of me. The realistically dominant side of my character accepts that perhaps nothing could have reached or taught this young man some decently upright and moral values. A sad indictment indeed.


As for the police officer. I really do feel for him. I know they are "toughened" from my chats with IG and others in this family who are police people. (I have in-laws in police plus a cousin of my own in the Canadian Mounted police).

But even so .. like me who sees patients die on a daily basis.. you never really do get used to it and always wonder if you could have done that bit more.

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

Suggesting the girls that accepted the lift deserved what they got? That's abonimable.

Since Barkstar is certainly not suggesting that, it clearly follws that he is not abominable ...
Regrettably, people tend to get what they negotiate before they get what they deserve.
Whatever Barkstar and I may be for pointing out the truth, that is woefully insufficient grounds for suggesting either that what was said was abominable for having been said, or that such a truth is abominable, spoken or not.

It is, regrettably, the truth - reality, if you will - that when it comes to life and limb, the best defense is to behave in collusion with truth/reality. It is also regrettable - probably more so - when those who chose to collect Darwin Awards drag other unwilling nominees along with them, successfully or not.

Whatever one's opinion of the truth, the truth does not require consent or approval from anyone. It simply is. The extent to which one disagrees is always directly proportional to the discomfort experienced - unless one is either a sadist, a masochist, or a psychopath.

Those who [are in a position to] warp reality so as to foist discomfort upon others? They are the abominable.
[/offtopic]

If I am not mistaken, one of the meanings of the word 'criminal', is 'socially retarded' - and, by retarded, I mean developmentally stunted.

It is very unfortunate when criminals - those possessed of an abominable developmental deficiency - drag the innocent into their downward spiral. Regrettably, it is not outside the realm of possibility that others will come to harm when a man who can't even be trusted with a toy gun or a screwdriver, gets his hands on a car, and innocent people.

Paul Bunting's friend may not be abominable, but he is a criminal enabler, and, in this New Yorker's opinion, should be charged with several felonies.

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The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation