Safe Speed Forums

Hello,

I'd like to write about the driver of this vehicle which I followed down the A5 Shrewsbury bypass this lunchtime. In particular, I would like to commend his courteous and safe driving for the period that I happened to be following him, which was at 12.35, from the A458 Bridgnorth junction to the B4386 Westbury roundabout where he turned off. However, I'd be interested to learn West Mercia Police's opinion on exceeding the speed limit on public roads, given that the driver of this vehicle was travelling at speeds between 76-80 mph -- I found this out by keeping pace with him, even though it was difficult at times. Even taking into consideration the fact that my speedometer would've been over-reading slightly, he would still have been exceeding the speed limit. The vehicle in question was also not on a "blues-and-twos" either.

I should point out that road conditions were dry, visibility was excellent, the weather was sunny, and traffic was light. It was perfectly safe for him to be travelling at those speeds, but it does rather undermine West Mercia Safer Roads Partnership's policies of catching speeding drivers, and that exceeding the speed limit endangers lives. After all, the speed limit is the limit. The driver in question was simply driving safely and professionally at an appropriate speed for the road, weather, and traffic conditions. I'd be interested to know if you, as a member of the West Mercia Safer Roads Partnership, consider his driving to be reckless, or if you accept that it's better to let drivers use their judgment on what is the most suitable speed to drive at. Incidentally, it is rather ironic that the vehicle in question had "Collision Investigation" marked on the side of it, so I assume that the driver would know better than most other people how much (or how little) importance excessive speed has to play in causing road traffic accidents.

Dear Mr Jones
I refer to your e-mail message on 7th March which has been passed to me from colleagues at Shrewsbury.
West Mercia Constabulary has a very robust approach to dealing with police vehicles allegedly exceeding speed limits and particularly the manner in which we apply the exemptions under Section 87 of the Road Traffic Regulations Act 1984 which states: “No statutory provision imposing a speed limit on motor vehicles shall apply to any vehicle on an occasion when it is being used for fire brigade, ambulance or police purposes, if the observance of that provision would be likely to hinder the use of the vehicle for the purpose for which it is being used on that occasion”.

These would include issues such as attending an emergency call, gaining on a vehicle ahead which they intended to stop and a multitude of operational issues. It does not state within these regulations that Police Vehicles have to use their blue lights when exceeding the speed limit. Blue lights are used to try and warn other motorists of the police vehicles presence when traffic conditions require it, but these can hinder certain police operational activity.

I note that you do not state how you checked the police vehicle's speed. A 'following speed check' using a calibrated speedometer is something which requires training and practice in order to be accepted for evidential purposes. In addition, although you allege the police vehicle was travelling at speeds between 76-80 mph, you may not be aware that a speedometer may, by law, have a 10% inaccuracy for under-reading the true speed which may have put your actual speed between 69 and 73mph.

The officer in question has been identified and spoken to regarding this incident and denies travelling at the speeds you claim and under the circumstances, I am taking no further action.

Thank you for taking the time to let us know your thoughts in this matter.

Yours sincerely,

(name removed)

A 'following speed check' using a calibrated speedometer is something which requires training and practice

Oh please, are they seriously trying to suggest that it requires "training & practice" to look at a speedo now?

Do poice cars have 'black boxes'?

all our vans have Trackers from which we can produce speeding reports.

I don't know whether this force is using the system, it would provide a definitive answer either way.

Some forces do - they have a GPS based system that will tell where the car is, where it has been and what speed it is travelling/has travelled at. Primarily the purpose is to make efficient use of patrol vehicles when dealing with calls but it is very much the 'spy in the car'.
I don't know whether this force is using the system, it would provide a definitive answer either way.

Well, it would be nice to find out, but I get the impression that this Chief Inspector is going to block any and all further attempts I might make at getting to the bottom of this matter. I know it wasn't dangerous, but I resent getting preached at for not exceeding the speed limit when the police themselves know that it's not dangerous to drive at 70+ in those conditions. It's the hypocrisy I can't stand. I wonder if it's worth asking the CI if that vehicle had a black box, and if so, what that revealed, and if I'm able to look at the logs myself.

If I were you I'd write and ask...if theres no sense I'd follow up with a FOI or even IPCC. Why on earth not rattle them a bit.

Hello Mr Udall,

You may recall that in March 2008 I contacted you about one of your marked Incident Support Vehicles breaking the speed limit on the A5 dual carriageway around Shrewsbury. I have since calibrated my speedometer from a GPS device, and my suspicions were correct, that **55 *** was travelling at 74-78mph.

But it's not about that vehicle that I'm today emailing you. Yesterday afternoon (Wednesday 15th April) I happened to be returning from Telford back to Welshpool when this vehicle [mentioned in the subject line], a marked Vauxhall Astra patrol car, caught up with me on the A5 dual carriageway by the A458 Bridgnorth junction. I pulled in to let it overtake after I had finished my overtaking manoeuvre and found that the driver was making rather good progress. I decided to try to follow him at a fixed, but safe, distance, and noted the speed in various locations. Approaching Dobbies Island where the A49 leaves for Hereford, he was travelling at some 82mph. On the straight travelling west, he reached 85mph and slightly faster. He saved his best on the stretch of A5 heading towards the A458 turnoff at Oxon. Here he achieved 90mph, and possibly quite some more, as I was unable to keep up with him. I mentioned that I tried to follow him at a fixed distance. For the most part he was increasing his distance away from me, so his speed was therefore in excess of what I recorded. This was true on the approach to the Oxon roundabout, where he was travelling at around 5mph faster than anything I could achieve.

Each time he pulled out to overtake a vehicle, and each time he exited a roundabout, not once did he use his indicators, which I found surprising given that he was pulling out to overtake at a minimum of 80mph. At no point did he have his siren on nor blue/red flashing lights. Please don't try to tell me that he was travelling covertly and was trying to reach his destination in an inconspicuous manner as he clearly wasn't -- he was in a very brightly-decorated Vauxhall Astra "beat" car. For the record he continued north up the A5. Doubtless he was familiarising himself with the car.

Notwithstanding the fact that he didn't use indicators, I found that his driving was safe and appropriate for the road, traffic, and weather conditions, and as such safe, and didn't put anybody at risk. Where does this leave your anti-speeding policy; I take it that it still applies to serving officers?

Regards,

Richard Jones

Do poice cars have 'black boxes'?

all our vans have Trackers from which we can produce speeding reports.

Lum on Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:16 pm
I can beat that. A couple of months back I followed a safety camera van doing 50 in a 40. Checked the 50 using GPS over a short distance before backing off.

Oh please, are they seriously trying to suggest that it requires "training & practice" to look at a speedo now?

(always overreading by a certain amount).

Do poice cars have 'black boxes'?

all our vans have Trackers from which we can produce speeding reports.

Time police show public some respect
8:20am Wednesday 15th April 2009



IF you listen to your radio, you might hear an advert telling us about a new police initiative in which they are trying to get us to help them and to be more interactive with the police — to make it a better place for all of us, except the criminal.

How can the police expect people to help them and be respectful of their authority when we are faced with the officers of the law constantly taking no notice of the rules they force us to follow — U-turns at junctions where there are clear and visible signs saying no U-turns; parking on double yellow lines, even those with the side bars denoting no loading; parking in disabled bays; speeding, obviously without blues and twos; using mobile phones or hand-held radios whilst driving; driving without a seatbelt — the major cause of the tragic death of the officer in Bury — and so on.

Until the public see the police on the beat, walking around, instead of driving in their cars and vans; until we see them obeying all the same laws we have to; until they do vehicle spot checks without half the town's police vehicles parked in one spot; until they show the public a little respect — then they will get little or no respect in return.

My junior school headmaster once told us, “Respect is earned, it's not a God-given right”.

They will not always overread by a certain amount. Legally they can report the true speed (being totally accurate), or the true speed + 10% + 6.25mph, or anything in between. The amount of over-read usually varies with speed too.