Safe Speed Forums

Good morning all,
My 20 year old son has just recieved his summons for a speeding offence, namely caught by a Gatso radar speed camera (type 24) doing 77 mph in a 50 mph limit. He has held a full licence for 21 months (3 shy of the 2 year probationary period) and this is his first offence of any description and will be unable to take part in the fixed penalty scheme due to the excessive speed.
As the law stands at the moment I understand (please correct me if I am wrong) that if he was doing 16-25 mph over the speed limit this would involve 4 penalty points and 26-35 mph over this invoves 5-6 penalty points, therefore technically he falls within the 5-6 point bracket and at 6 points he would lose his licence and have to resit his test. His present employment also depends on him having a driving licence.
With the above in mind what would the members suggest as my best course of action.
1/ plead guilty and rely on the magistrates leniency with regard to the mitigating circumstances of the employment issue and hope that he doesn't recieve 6 points.
2/ plead guilty and argue that as the gatso type 24 has a (plus/minus) 2% error rate at speeds of over 60 mph (source Devon and Cornwall safety camera partnership), that this could then technically put him into the 16 - 25 mph over the speed limit and therefore the lower, 4 point bracket. Or is this already factored in and then the magistrate sees him as a cocky so and so and leniency goes out the window.
3/ any other useful suggestions that would see him escape a ban.

Obviously I will have to seek legal advice, but would rather do this with options of my own and in any event a ban for the above, so close to completing the 2 years would seem very harsh.
Many thanks in advance and will keep you posted.
Ian
This has also been posted with pepipoo. com.

Keep on Pepipoo with this one. Having negotiated the legal wrangles, come back here - and bring your son with you. There is much good stuff here, but the main thrust is safe driving here, whereas keeping abreast (or ahead) of the law is over yonder.

Welcome along.

I thought it was 3 to 6 points for any speeding offence if a court was dealing with it. Maybe the 4 points and 5-6 points thing is a guideline for the mags. Oh well, you've gone to Pepipoo and that's probably the best place. You might also have a look at Law On The Web (which is where I found the 3-6 points bit - Motoring Offences link on the left takes you to a list of all offence codes) and also go to the Association of British Drivers where they've got a list of lawyers who are dealing with speeding offences.

HTH.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Welcome, Dippy.

I echo Roger's advice - work on this one at Pepipoo.

But I do have an idea. If, by any chance, it's at the NIP stage, not the summons stage, (and yes I know you wrote 'summons') then you might consider refusing to name the driver. That offence carries a maximum of three points, and careful management might be able to move the date of offence outside of the two year period.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Roger- yes, thanks and will do.
Gatsobait- will check the links, thx.
Safespeed- to late im afraid, I am the registered owner and have already named my son as the driver before realising the seriousness of his actions.

I will scan all the paperwork to pepipoo and see what they suggest.

Again, thanks for the quick responses.

Ian

I take it that he's returned his NIP? This was almost an ideal opportunity to move the offence outside the 2 year period. <still hopeful>

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

If it was a rear facing Gatso he was caught by, you would be perfectly within your rights to demand evidence that it was actually his vehicle that was photographed and not a "clone"

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What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?

Your best course of action is to think how well this has turned out. Look on the bright side. You have a chance to sit him down in kitchen with a copy of the highway code, and go through the speed limits. You can show him the 50 mph sign, and ask him why he was doing 77 mph! Make sure he realises that other road users don’t want to be menaced on the roads, and that they want the police to strip his license away to make the roads safer for themselves.

Tell him that you are worried about his driving, and that you do not want to outlive him because of a stupid crash. Ask him to consider taking the pledge to obey the limit from here on in. Then read the rest of these suggestions and do everything you can for your son to help him to keep his license.

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I stole this .sig

Safespeed,
Yes, he has returned the nip. Does the 2 year period extend to the court date, if so could I delay 3 months on other grounds.

Gixxer,
no, it was a front facing, fixed camera. However, is there any mileage in persuing this along safespeeds delaying tactics.

Basingwerk,
I appreciate the sentiments, but we are talking 1 offence in 21 months of caution/penalty free driving and I would expect there to be a large number of 'experienced' drivers who would welcome that sort of record. However, the new driver is stereotyped as a boy racer and this offence could cause him a ban and therefore the loss of his employment. Harsh I think you would agree.

Anyway Guys, thanks fot the input, I have scanned the court bundle to pepipoo and will await their advice and keep you posted.
Ian

There is nothing wrong in asking to see the actual photograph of the offence (your son may be lucky and his features are not distinguishable, but don't hold your breath on that one).
SafeSpeed's advice regarding delaying getting the offence to court won't help your son because the date of the offence was before the magic 24 month period (the court will look at the date of offence, not the date of conviction).

You could try knocking up a grovelling letter of apology etc, but I suspect the court will view 77mph in a 50 zone as a pure piss take.

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What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?

Hmm, I had a bit of a chin scratch before responding to this, mainly because I don't wish to cause any offence to dippy. I've read before of folks pulled for motoring offences citing blemish-free driving records of 2 or 3 years without incident and wondered what we are to make of this.
Surprise that they consider this to be a long period?
Or perhaps sufficient time in which to declare themsleves good, safe drivers?
Dismay that it is such a short time before they got caught...usually by a speed camera?

The technical point (that I think you missed) was that a S172 (failing to identify driver) offence takes place later and the date of a S172 offence can be manipulated, especially when several NIPs are involved. I believe that the date of the S172 offence is on the 29th day after a demand notice is received. The other point was that S172 carries a maximum of 3 points, although moves are afoot to change this.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

@ SafeSpeed,
I understand what you are saying about the S172, but that is neither here nor there now as the OP's son has already returned his NIP admitting that he was the driver on the date the offence was committed.

The OP's son's charge will read in court that on 5th February 2005 (or whatever date it was), you drove at a speed in excess blah, blah, blah.
The court will then look at this and ask how long the OP has had his license and it's all over from that point on.



No offence here Dippy, but 21 months of penalty free driving isn't anything to shout home about.

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What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?

Bad luck that he got copped so close to the end of the probationary period. My eldest has just completed his first 6 months after passing his test - and hopefully, he knows enough to be careful. (He is armed with a useful gadget )

Not sure there is much he can do about this. In theory - his licence should return to provisional status - which means he can drive with L-plates. I'd book the retests as soon as this occurs - to reinstate the licence asap. As I understand things - if he passes the test again - and given the 27 mph excess - they may make him take an extended test - about 50% longer than original (I think - but may be incorrect? Anyway - his new licence - should he pass the retest - will have the 6 points for the duration - and he'll have to be super careful for three years on this basis. Given that he faces this for starters - why not start the retrain lessons now? You never know - it may stand him in good favour anyway. Just a thought...



Yellow or dark blue Truvelo?



You'll get used to him! He's all heart really!

However - I do remind my son to watch out for Steve's vans and so on when he sets off anywhere

But impress upon your son that he will always be learning each time he sets off in a car - no two journeys are ever the same.

You may of course be lucky - and it may be a three pointer. I'd shop around for a decent lawyer in any case.

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I don't know what the score is in your area but up here if you get a letter from your employer stating the consequences of being banned, i.e. that you need your licence to do your job, the magistrates normally substitute points for a ban (if one is being considered for a straight speeding offence). I realise this won't help over the re-sit problem.

Dippy, I hope your boy manages to keep his license, but only after he shows he is mature enough after doing nearly 80 mph in the 50 zone.

The probation period gets new drivers who are not mature enough onto the bus, where at least we are safe from them! The 18 year old bloke who drove into me was on the wrong side of the road, going too fast. He got a nine month ban, but my workmate will need a new hip!

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I stole this .sig

Hmmm....

Bus Safety

These figures not valid because they are based on "kilometres for vehicle class", and do not divide by number of passengers carried.

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I stole this .sig

So if a vehicle full of people knocks someone over then that is better than a vehicle with just the driver in knocking someone over?

Thats one way of looking at it.

Nothing to stop him riding a bike...he might be even more dangerous on oneof those ....

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