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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 23:30 
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I don't dispute that; you missed my point:
weepej wrote:
They should use their judgement ...

Wasn't your earlier point that "An individual driver driving down a road is in no position to judge the road as a whole"? How do you reconcile these seemingly contradictory statements? Are they in that position or not?

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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 00:02 
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weepej wrote:
wrote:An individual driver driving down a road is in no position to judge the road as a whole. the whole system's got to be looked at, not "I went down that road at 80mph and didn't hit anything so that must be safe".

so who judges a safe speed for that road, if not the driver on the day? Someone in the council office who says 40MPH is ok?.....even when it's two inches deep in snow or covered in black ice???? Are you gonna drive at 40MPH in those conditions because the lolly says so....after all you are not fit to judge it by your own admission....is this why Britains roads are so unsafe now with people of your attitude driving them....so sad!!!!

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 00:06 
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weepej wrote:
wrote:An individual driver driving down a road is in no position to judge the road as a whole

No EXPERIENCED driver judges the road as a whole, only the immediate few hundred yards ahead that is visible.....a lollipop judges the road as a whole...what makes the most sense, a human experienced driver judging the road ahead, that he can see, for the conditions at the time or a lollipop placed there by someone, who may never have even driven the road....I know who I trust most.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 00:15 
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weepej wrote:
They should use their judgement, but not exceed the posted limit. Stated explicity in the highway code.


Spoken with the naivity of someone who has just passed their driving test.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 00:26 
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graball wrote:
Spoken with the naivity of someone who has just passed their driving test.


You mean somebody who isn't minded to breaking the law?


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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 00:46 
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But law is only a matter of time and location.
And we are ruled by people who would have us obey the minutiae of law, while ignoring every detail of law themselves.
They send troops to invade a foreign country on false evidence and they also fiddle taxes and expenses to their advantage.

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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 02:44 
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graball wrote:
weepej wrote:
An individual driver driving down a road is in no position to judge the road as a whole

No EXPERIENCED driver judges the road as a whole, only the immediate few hundred yards ahead that is visible.....a lollipop judges the road as a whole...what makes the most sense, a human experienced driver judging the road ahead, that he can see, for the conditions at the time or a lollipop placed there by someone, who may never have even driven the road....I know who I trust most.

Speed Limits are required to be clear and help to provide a predictable expectation of potential hazards along each road, the road's style and appearance also goes towards helping road users estimate road expectations.
Whilst road users should drive /ride so that they can stop in the distance that they can see to be clear this is coupled with a host of additional road and surrounding area and environmental information that all helps the road user to establish conditions and help anticipate the road conditions and expectations.
The attempt should always be to try to safely look as far ahead as you can and then 'scan back down the road' (in approximation and conditions allowing) and scan about (etc), and during these scans we assess and make risk management and condition judgment decisions.
Being safe and not having any accident is of paramount importance for every trip and every mile that we travel.
When road speeds are set and conditions imposed by authorities they take on this 'road style guidance' that imposes set preconceived ideas to all road users. When this concept is altered it sets up unknowns and changes the balances thus leaving road users less prepared and having to work harder to fully and properly assess all road environments.
So when road speeds start to become arbitrary the balance and predictability is altered and the road user has a hard job to judge and manage risk as well and hence why it is so very important that safe and appropriate speeds are set initially and then all later enforcement is proportional and also appropriate.

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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 02:54 
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GreenShed wrote:
Alternatively they could just drive within the limits as they are required to do. Wouldn't that be the most likely scenario?
There is as I have explained above the need to have safe and appropriate speeds applied to roads appropriately first. Once road speeds are altered with bad and inappropriate application road users have a harder time to judge and manage risk as well.
When inattention and frustration are the main accident causation factors why are speeds therefore being altered un-necessarily and adding to the problems?

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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:34 
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SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
GreenShed wrote:
Alternatively they could just drive within the limits as they are required to do. Wouldn't that be the most likely scenario?
There is as I have explained above the need to have safe and appropriate speeds applied to roads appropriately first. Once road speeds are altered with bad and inappropriate application road users have a harder time to judge and manage risk as well.
When inattention and frustration are the main accident causation factors why are speeds therefore being altered un-necessarily and adding to the problems?

It isn't the business of a driver to be assessing the suitability of speed limits on a road; the limits are clearly indicated to drivers if they care to learn how this is done. If they do not then they have their driving priviledges removed or come nearer to that.

SPECS are used on road works, increasingly so it would seem. There are appropriate speed limits set on these, say 50 mph on a 70 mph road, yet we see much discussion about not observing these limits because they are inappropriate because no road workers can be seen from time-to-time. It is my contention that looking for road works activity on a motorway while being seperated from oncoming traffic at 50 mph by a few cones and then choosing to ignore the 50 mph speed limit to drive at 70 mph or more is totally inappropriate. It is easier and safer to simply accept what has been adjudged for all drivers to be the maximum by the Highways Authority, that being the maximum suitable speed at the posted limit, whatever that is adjudged to be.

Time for assessment of safety can thus be used by the driver to achieve safe progress without the need to see if work is being done. I believe it is absured to suggest that drivers can assess the suitability of a speed limit and the speeds at which they drive whether above or below the speed limits in a safer way than driving safely and within the limits that are set and indicated to them. If this is a source of frustration than the sooner a driver, so frustrated, is removed from the road the better it will be for maintaining and improving safety.

While you contend that speed limits are changed unecesarrily I don't believe that any are so altered; it too is an absured suggestion.


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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:41 
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Quote:
While you contend that speed limits are changed unecesarrily I don't believe that any are so altered; it too is an absured suggestion.


if you were to ask 100/1000/10,000 motorists if they think that some speed limits were being changed un neccessarily, you would realise, just how much out of touch you are, with the majority of motorists.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:47 
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graball wrote:
Quote:
While you contend that speed limits are changed unecesarrily I don't believe that any are so altered; it too is an absured suggestion.


if you were to ask 100/1000/10,000 motorists if they think that some speed limits were being changed un neccessarily, you would realise, just how much out of touch you are, with the majority of motorists.

Very good, and what justification would they have that any of the changes were unnecessary?

As I explained above, they would have none.


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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:55 
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So the thoughts of the common motorist are insignificant,even though they may be in the majority, have far more driving experience (asis certain in the case of the police) than local authorities?

Typical of the people we have running the country then.....YOU WILL OBEY AND NOT QUESTION WHY!

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:57 
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or it could be a case of..... "I (greenshed) am always right and if you argue and ask me to prove the implausable, I will storm off in a huff"

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 13:04 
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GreenShed wrote:
It isn't the business of a driver to be assessing the suitability of speed limits on a road

It is the business of a driver to assess a suitably safe speed, unless you disagree. If the majority of drivers agree that speed it significantly higher than the posted limit then one of two things must happen, that limit must be reviewed or there must be a clear (and local) explanations why the road is deceptive. Failure to do that will result with respect for those limits being eroded (in turn leading to disrespect of other limit/laws etc).

This is really obvious. The only people who disagree with that simple argument are probably those with vested interests, such that gaining their income from enforcing needlessly low limits.

GreenShed wrote:
SPECS are used on road works, increasingly so it would seem. There are appropriate speed limits set on these, say 50 mph on a 70 mph road, yet we see much discussion about not observing these limits because they are inappropriate because no road workers can be seen from time-to-time. It is my contention that looking for road works activity on a motorway while being seperated from oncoming traffic at 50 mph by a few cones

Yet we have so many 60 limits (SCs and DCs), with only a strip of paint separating oncoming traffic; the motorway workers are protected by concrete barriers which is more than most other road users get.

GreenShed wrote:
I believe it is absured to suggest that drivers can assess the suitability of a speed limit

That's right, motorists must remain at the speed limit at all times, never to go slower than it, even around corners or rain/snow/fog, disregarding hazard density....
:loco:


GreenShed wrote:
While you contend that speed limits are changed unecesarrily I don't believe that any are so altered; it too is an absured suggestion.

That is your opinion, others will share in that opinion. I believe your opinion isn't shared by the majority of motorists.

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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 13:39 
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Amusing.
Arguing pedantics.
As for speed limits on/near roadworks: Currently the A421/Bedford/M1J13 dualing roadworks are being done. There is a 40mph limit practically all the way from Bedford to the M1.
When enforcement was by the occasional van (hard to see because they parked on the blind side of a bridge) all (or nearly all) of the drivers (including trucks) ignored the restriction.
Now they are enforced by specs.
Funny, the speeds have gone down to around 40.
And they didn't ignore the limit because they could not see the roadworkers, the traffic used to go past guys cleaning the cones at night at well over 40....and mainly over 70 !
EVEN with a big van with flashing amber lights as a warning they ignored the limit.
Now they don't.
Everything has a bright side.....
Some cameras and speed limits may be over the top....but ones for roadworks are not. Nobody has the right to ignore a threat to anothers life.

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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 14:30 
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jomukuk wrote:
As for speed limits on/near roadworks: ...
And they didn't ignore the limit because they could not see the roadworkers, the traffic used to go past guys cleaning the cones at night at well over 40....and mainly over 70 !

Well that is bad - but hold on!

I've never, in recent memory, ever seen a motorway where workers are separated by mere cones; I've only ever seen use of concrete blocks. So while your example may well be valid for the specific case you describe, it certainly does not apply to all such motorway road works.

There's more. While I agree it isn't right that people be nipping past cone cleaners at 70, why are the folks cleaning the cones in the first place? How long must have the works been there for cones to need such maintenance? If for any significant period of time, why aren't concrete blocks used instead?
Many would agree to having a temporary restrictions during the times when the cones are fussed around with (with signs explaining why the limit has to be so low), but that’s no justification to apply it 24/7.

More significantly: why do they opt to clean the cones during darkness? :loco: I mean, that’s just f :censored: g stupid, for several reasons!!!
(heck I never see real road works being done out of office hours anyway :roll: )


There are questions more reaching than that. From your description, there are many people disregarding the reduced motorway limits. This of course isn't good, but how did we reach such a level of disrespect for them? Is it because of limits within other such areas really are taking the pi55?

I have to wonder when people call for stringent measures, each one in itself reasonable but where the combination of them are obviously overkill, when there are much higher limits on roads where there are usually people (cyclists) within the same lanes as 70mph traffic (DCs with reservations), not separated by anything, without road lighting, perfectly legally. How much more inconsistent can this possibly be?

Sorry but I don’t buy it!

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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 15:13 
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Steve wrote:
...
GreenShed wrote:
I believe it is absured to suggest that drivers can assess the suitability of a speed limit

That's right, motorists must remain at the speed limit at all times, never to go slower than it, even around corners or rain/snow/fog, disregarding hazard density....
:loco:

The only time this gets mentioned is by those who disagree with speed enforcement measures; I don't know of any road safety organisation or authority who have or would promote such a suggestion.
The recommendation is to use a speed that is safe AND that is below the maximum speed for the road.
Can you show any policies that are other than I suggest?


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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 15:40 
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Quote:
The only time this gets mentioned is by those who disagree with speed enforcement measures; I don't know of any road safety organisation or authority who have or would promote such a suggestion.

You have promoted it in your prior posts, where you state that a motorist must not choose a speed that is safe (or form an opinion as to what is safe) but that they MUST follow the speed limit.

Are you now backing down on that completely stupid statement?


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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 15:41 
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GreenShed wrote:
Steve wrote:
...
GreenShed wrote:
I believe it is absured to suggest that drivers can assess the suitability of a speed limit

That's right, motorists must remain at the speed limit at all times, never to go slower than it, even around corners or rain/snow/fog, disregarding hazard density....
:loco:

The only time this gets mentioned is by those who disagree with speed enforcement measures; I don't know of any road safety organisation or authority who have or would promote such a suggestion.

Don’t you see: that’s effectively what you said: "I believe it is absured to suggest that drivers can assess the suitability of a speed limit".
Your question of policy is irrelevant (and a distraction from the point we are discussing).

It seems that, like weepej, you are conflicted with your own opinions. This only gets demonstrated from those who strongly agree with speed limits and enforcement measures as they are applied today.




I say again:
It is the business of a driver to assess a suitably safe speed, do you agree or disagree?

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 Post subject: Re: SPECS3
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 16:06 
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Odin wrote:
Quote:
The only time this gets mentioned is by those who disagree with speed enforcement measures; I don't know of any road safety organisation or authority who have or would promote such a suggestion.

You have promoted it in your prior posts, where you state that a motorist must not choose a speed that is safe (or form an opinion as to what is safe) but that they MUST follow the speed limit.

Are you now backing down on that completely stupid statement?

The interpretation you have put on that is complete bollix and you know it. It isn't even worthy of being described as stupid.

All of my advice has been and will continue to be that "a safe speed that is also a speed that is at or below the speed limit should be chosen by drivers".

Only the obnoxious idiot would interpret that as "drive at the speed limit no matter what!"

Where's that knob smiley when you need it?


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