Safe Speed Forums

A very specific scenario:

You are driving along a road approaching a 90 degree right hand bend, which is also a junction with a minor road which goes straight on. In other words I can turn 90R to stay on the same road, or I can go straight on to go onto the minor road. Ok so far?

My intention is to stay on the main road and follow it to the right. As I approach I see a car is waiting to emerge from the minor road, and go straight on (across my path) to join the main road. Should I indicate right?

As far as I see it, the argument in favour of indicating is that it makes my intention absolutely clear to the other driver. On the other hand there is a risk that if the other driver hasn't taken in all the road signage correctly he may wrongly decide from my signal that I am turning onto a minor road, and therefore pull out, thinking he has right of way.

I tend not to indicate, but will do my best to demonstrate from my road positioning and body language that I am turning, whilst managing my speed so as to keep the "straight on" escape open until the last possible moment, should he pull out. But I have indicated on odd occasions, when I felt the particular situation merited it, though I can't really say what it was that gave me the feeling I ought to.

What does everyone else do? Do you all follow some hard and fast rule "every time", and if so what logic is it based upon?

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

If it was me waiting I would be looking for a left indicator from the oncoming vehicle as a sign that I could move out.

As the main road turns right the driver on the side road would know that any traffic on the main road would be more likely to follow the main road and therefore would not pull out.

If I was the driver on the main road I would do nothing if I intended to follow the main road and I would indicate left if I intended to drive straight on so as to let the other car know they could exit the side road.

We have exactly that situation on a side road near my home and I really appreciate other drivers indicating left when they intend to travel straight on and if I do not see any indication from the other car I assume they will continue around the corner and so I wait for them to pass.

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Ross

Yes I'm a hoon, but only on the track!!!!

A road layout exactly as you describe is part of my M25 avoiding route to work so I follow it quite frequently. My route follows the major road (to the right) rather than the minor road (straight on).

I have to confess that sometimes, when I'm driving a bit more on autopilot and not 'consciously concentrating', I automatically flick the right indicator - then almost immediately wonder why I did so.

My feeling is that a right signal is not necessary if following the major road but a left signal is necessary if taking the minor road. I can conceive circumstances - if a vehicle waiting to emerge from the minor road and turn right (across my path) appears to be about to pull out - when a right signal would be helpful.

There is an exact replica of JT's scenario at the entrance to Coford airfield/museum site; the main road bends 90 degrees right, the junction and museum entry is straight ahead. Most if not all employees are aware of the nuance, museum visitors it would seem are not quite so savvy or observant.
A few weeks a go I approached with the intention of staying on the main road (ie following the bend around to the right) but as I did so a BMW approached the junction from the museum exit straight ahead of me. The way the vehicle was moving, the way the driver was glancing towards his passenger told me that he thought I was going straight ahead and he would just pull out. He did.
Fortunately I'd slowed sufficiently to permit him to pass in front of me, he was probably quite unaware of the error he'd just made.
So yes JT, if presented with a similar scenario in future, I'll indicate - it would be perfectly clear what I was intending to do. Unless someone can see a reason for just a signal to be mis-interpreted in any way?

its annoying when you find yourself doing that isnt it!

most of these answers expect a certain level of competence & observation from the other driver!

i'd have thought the fact you are slowing down to negogiate the corner was a pretty good indication of your intent. i wouldnt indicate as i shouldnt need to, but leave all the options open to avoid the crunch.

maybe you could try flashing your lights on your approach to make sure he knows you're there

Ha! Made THAT error in Italy once. Waiting to pull out of a junction and was flashed by a car approaching along the main road - so I pulled out thinking cheers mate.
Doesn't mean the same in Italy as it's generally accepted to mean here in the UK though does it? It means - don't make a move or do anything, I'm coming along and it's my right of way

I would not indicate at all, based on the principle that it's better to leave him confused with no information than for him to receive the signal wrongly, but in any case I would drive so carefully (and slowly) that no serious crash can happen no matter what the other driver interprets. Do not rely on him or her - they could easily be a total bonehead.

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I stole this .sig

Personally I was taught a signal (not just by indicator) can either inform or mislead another road user - all depends on the individual circumstances.

I guess the "textbook" answer would be not necessary for you to indicate as you are maintaining progress on the same road. As JT says though, no hard and fast rule here in practice. When I'm in this situation (on the main road) I would try to make eye contact with the driver waiting to emerge. If that dosnt give me any clues, I would give a couple of flicks on the right indicator - not a continuous indicator as this may mislead a following driver...

This illustrates the difference in our philosophies. I think a higher priority ought to attach to avoiding an accident completely instead of just trying to ensure that the resulting accident is not serious.

What if the other road user is a "bone-headed" cyclist, who wrongly assumes that if you don't indicate then you must be going straight on, regardless of the road markings. Even if you slow to 20mph the odds are you'll still seriously injure or kill him if he pulls into your path, whereas a timely signal might have completely prevented any incident from occurring.

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

Why would there be any need to indicate when you are following the road road a bend. If you were on the main road and there was a car waiting to pull out from the minor road, the only requirement for you to indicate would be if you were pulling off into the minor road.

To indicate or not to indicate...Personally, I always check my mirror before I do manauvere, if there are other road users about I will indicate given in the right circumstances. If there are no cars about I wont. I dont really see much point in indicating when there are no cars to indicate to.

If you're signalling to the right, the other driver must wait as you have the right of way.

if you intend to cross over a 'give way' dashed-line on the road, then you must indicate, otherwise you do not - it's as simple as that!

I wouldn't indicate if following the main road in the circumstances JT describes. There is a junction I often use that has almost the same configuration.

One situation where I would contemplate a non-standard indication is this:

There is a standard 4-exit roundabout. However, about 80% of traffic from the entrance at 6 o'clock uses the exit at 9 o'clock. The other two exits are just for small local roads. If going straight ahead from 6 o'clock to 12 o'clock, I would tend to indicate right, to make it clear to traffic emerging from the 9 o'clock exit that I wasn't turning left.

Perhaps in the original scenario, if most traffic in practice turned left, I might indicate right if keeping on the mainline.

But you have to consider the circumstances rather than applying hard and fast rules.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Exact replica of this layout going through Wingham in Kent (westbound) the other day. I didn't indicate but moved out a little towards the right hand side of my lane to limit confusion of the driver waiting at the junction. I thought this might communicate a visual cue of passing in front of him rather than going straight on. I think I also tried to get some eye contact with the driver at the junction -most drivers going straight on would not do so. It felt right from that point of view although in an ideal world I would be positioning the car on the left hand side of the lane for best vision up the road. Tricky one.

I was always told not to rely the other cars indicator to show their intentions. This is critical if you are thinking of pulling out.

My wife had a near miss the other day on a roundabout when the car on the island indicated left an exit too early and my wife went to pull out...

There have been occasions on the bike where I have forgot to cancel the left hand indicator after turning a junction.. I am always wary about motorcycles indicationg because I know ho easy it is to not cancel with everything else you have to concentrate on.

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Speed camera policy Kills

Why? The situation described is simply a cross-roads with a gyratory control. If the 'control' was not present, would you still signal right? A right signal would inhibit the progress of anyone wishing to emerge from the 12 o'clock position.

Surely your comment, and many of the other comments in this thread simply reflect the poor standards of signalling on our roads, much of which can be contributed to laziness and the apathetic attitude of many motorists. However, there also exists a minority who firmly believe that signalling right to go straight ahead is the correct way of signalling.

Going back to the original point, the Highway Code advises, "Give signals if they would warn or inform other road users." I would extend this to include, "....or to eliminate uncertainty."

As for establishing eye contact. This is not something that I would necessarily feel is beneficial because there is a maxim in driving that "The hands follow the eyes." I.E. If you observe to where a person is looking, then they will probably go in that direction. Try it on roundabouts. It works.

To establish eye contact in the situation described infers that one is looking into the junction and therefore could be misinterpreted as an intention to steer in that direction.

If I felt that a right signal on such a bend would serve to "Warn or Inform" the other road user, then I would certainly give one.

JT's example is classic in that the safest negotiation of such a hazard depends on you knowing what's going on in the mind of the other driver. We have a few such junctions in Cumbria, Lyth valley road at Crosthwaite and Bowland Bridge, and A683 at Killington are examples which spring to mind.
They are usually light volume roads.
My reaction in the precise circs JT has outlined would be to opt out of the potential conflict. I'd trim my speed to the extent that I'd be aware of the other driver's intentions before coming into conflict. If he decides to ignore the give way then his speed will stay constant and he'll be past before I've got to the bend. If he is obviously slowing down then I'd see that. The only rational reasons for him to slow down would be that he has seen and is aware of the give way line, or he intends to turn left. I'd time my approach to the bend in such a way that if he stops I will pass slowly and carefully. If he decides to turn left believing it to be his right of way, then my approach would allow me to settle behind him.....

Then tug him!

But I wouldn't rely on signals. In this situation it would be potentially misleading.

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Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian

Classic!

Crosthwaite is indeed a great example, with two such junctions 40 yards apart!

Ultimately, I suppose its just one of those great road design "imponderables" that keep us on our toes and make driving such a process of continual analysis and learning, but here are a couple more thoughts...

Mention was made of using road position to make our intention clear to the other road user. My humble suggestion here (and something I try do to) is not to move to the right on approach, but to do something slightly more subtle. Move to the left for a conventional approach to the RH bend, but instead of the normal "late apex" to maximise vision do the exact opposite. Start the turn early and gently, such that you start to sweep across the other drivers path much earlier than you would otherwise do. This hopefully makes your intention clear whilst you are still a good distance away from the other vehicle, and also gives you more time to do something about it should he then ignore the G/W.

Incidentally, in my original example I was assuming that the other user was already at the G/W line, so the dilemma was concerned with whether he would decide by your lack of indication that you intended to go straight on, rather than follow the road across his path. I hadn't considered the possibility Ian raised, of the other car still approaching the junction, in which circumstance I can only nod vigorously in agreement at his advice to manage speed / timing to remove the conflict altogether.

The final point is a bit more subtle still, and concerns something Paul has touched on in the past, ie the distinction between things that affect us as individuals, and things that affect drivers as a "system". This may be a bit tenuous, but imagine the other driver is a bit dim, and is in some doubt about whether I should indicate to show that I intend to stay on the main road. In this specific circumstance, if I do indicate then it will assure my safety by confirming my intention in the mind of the other driver (even though there should not have been any ambiguity in the first place). That deals with the particular instance from the perspective of the individual, but from the perspective of the system I am giving a bad message, as I am strengthening the belief in the other drivers mind that vehicles turning right will indicate. So when tomorrow he arrives at the same junction he pulls out slap in front of someone else because they didn't give the (unnecessary) indication.

What a great paradox! In the single instance my action reduces ambiguity, yet at a system level it increases it!

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

In the scenario originally posted, I would indicate right even though it isn't strictly necessary in order to make my intentions clear. At the same time I would watch the other car and driver carefully for signs that they might pull out.
If the worst came to the worst I would use the minor road as an escape route.
On the opposite tack, if there is no-one to receive information, is there any point in giving it? I.e. if there are no road users visible is there any need to indicate?

I don't like to generalise but the worst offenders for NOT indicating at all or taking notice of others indicating are cyclists. I know there are good and bad riders but I think you need to be a car or motorcycle driver to know how critical indicating can be.

When I was on my bike test I came to a set of lights indicating left. As the lights changed I did a left and right lifesaver then as I went to pull away a cyclist went hurtling by on my left side. I nearly cleaned him up... If I had been a car he could have ended up dead.

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Speed camera policy Kills