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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 14:01 
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What a useful idea I thought it was when I saw Quentin Willson & Son on BBC breakfast TV this morning. However
Rospa spokesman Mr Clinton and mate Chief Inspector Jones both thought it is a negative idea. What they are saying in so many words is that if a person is taught when young this does not benefit that individual for life. This seems utter stupidity.Is it not true that almost all famous proffessionals and amateurs excellent at what they do were began being taught from a young age.

The Governments policy is no doubt influenced by such carachters as these two negative brainboxes. The Governments stupid policy re driver training or should I say driver brainwashing has resulted in drivers who have massive no claims to their credit but licences full of points for exceeding artificialy low speed limits by a few MPH.

This new initiative started in Switzerland I believe will only be for the good and not least EXPERIENCE when taught young by those with careful hands. Apparantly 40% less accidents have been noted in Switzerland due to these new courses - now available in the UK. :clap:


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 15:34 
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Have you any references to this please ?
Many people that take the IAM Test claim that they are better drivers. Many drivers & bikers take more education to improve their skills knowledge and abilities.
Good education at the beginning of any career is excellent as it can set you up for life with good attitudes and knowledge on 'how to learn' just to start with. Then safety is the default ability than dangerous or incompetent.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 16:02 
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This morning on BBC News Quentin Willson is a big advocate of this new initiative -started in Switzerland where 40% savings on accidents by the young are obseved by survey !! I see that if you type in to the net 'Bluewater' young drivers lessons it should come up. I believe it is the Wembley site etc. Other sites have already been opened NEC -Birmingham. Others are being opened and the young drivers are taught by good proffessionals.. Regarding the other two twits I mentioned as it instantly comes to mind--- at what age did 'they' start school - I6 ????? according to their intelegence they probably didn't go to school at all. They seem to be saying no-one can learn anything of value regarding skills untill the age of 16-when most of us first get behind a wheel. That is a pity & in my view lacking in many respects. Credit due to these forward thinking genuine safety conscious people. :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 16:17 
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Sorry I didn't add all the infore the Young Driver Training available here in the UK... The 'address' above is correct which brings up the site 'no licence required '. The sponsors are Seat -young drivers and Admiral Insurance multicar. I firmly believe this is the way to go to improve driver quality overall. I hope the Italians start doing this because it's a nightmare everytime I go by Milan.. :roll:


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 16:42 
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Yes, I saw this report too.

IMO this falls into the category of "against Government policy" as:

- they want to discourage anyone even thinking that they might want a car at all;
- research shows that people with skid pan or track day training are more likely to have accidents and therefore so will these kids.
- we can't have people enjoying themselves can we.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 19:24 
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The Government are probably worried that if children learn to drive early and enjoy it, they will be less likely to be brainwashed into the "evil car" and "speed kills" culture that seems to be spoon fed to them now.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 20:25 
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malcolmw wrote:
.....- research shows that people with skid pan or track day training are more likely to have accidents and therefore so will these kids....

got a reference to that - not seen that .... ? There has been previous reference to the fact that highly trained people can drive over their ability and that may cause accidents but a number of years later that was dismissed.
Attitude is a major contributor to how we 'task' our road use.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 00:59 
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graball wrote:
The Government are probably worried that if children learn to drive early and enjoy it, they will be less likely to be brainwashed into the "evil car" and "speed kills" culture that seems to be spoon fed to them now.
So well said, it bears repeating.
It's also worth noting that Michael Jordan didn't play enough baseball as a kid, but he played more than enough basketball.
SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
malcolmw wrote:
.....- research shows that people with skid pan or track day training are more likely to have accidents and therefore so will these kids....
got a reference to that - not seen that .... ? There has been previous reference to the fact that highly trained people can drive over their ability and that may cause accidents but a number of years later that was dismissed.
Attitude is a major contributor to how we 'task' our road use.
The research that 'shows' a day of skidpan or track training leads to a greater likelihood of accidents fails to consider that a day of skidpan training is simply not enough.

Where's the research that references more thorough skidpan or track day training? Either hidden, or undone, that's where, because the results would probably contradict the 'day at the track' results.

A single 'business day' of exposure is usually insufficient for the vast majority of subjects. Nevermind a subject such as skidpan training, which has so much more kinaesthetic information to consider.

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2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 01:10 
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malcolmw wrote:
- research shows that people with skid pan or track day training are more likely to have accidents and therefore so will these kids.

Perhaps possibly maybe ... those who opt for such tuition are those likely to spend relatively more time driving. Needless to say, those who spend more time driving will have greater exposure and hence will have a greater chance of being involved an accident in a given timeframe, all risks being equal.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 09:07 
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The RoSPA objection is that when children learn the mechanics of driving in a safe, traffic free environment they learn little about road safety and traffic awareness. Then when, at 17, they go on the road they will be dangerously over confident. RoSPA also think that these early trained drivers will pass their test after three or four lessons and without ever properly learning traffic awareness.

There might be some merit in their first argument - letting such drivers onto the public highway unsupervised would be disastrous - it falls down on the second. Rudimentary as our testing system is it still does not give licenses to totally traffic unaware, dangerously over confident drivers. Also I cannot believe that these off road courses take place with only one car on the track at a time - that would be very expensive

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:23 
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I think as we get older and more experienced we realise that not all folks are irresposible but there are some very irresponsible drivers on the road. I think that these young folks will be taught by responsible advanced drivers hand picked for the purpose with a very careful attitude. Driving is a complex skill due to the fact that there are vast differences in individuals. Take vast differences in reactions for a start but surely it cannot be a bad thing if young people are coached re handling a car in a reponsible fashion to start with. There is an awful lot to learn.
If anyone cares to look at the Rospa site a spokesman advocates looking regularly at the speedo! The Chief Inspector of Traffic Nottingham says he does not advocate looking at the speedo regulary. I got a good bollocking from my mechanic mates if I ever looked down at the gearstick--and rightly so. These are but a few of the necessities of what is the correct thing to do as regards these young drivers who are just starting out.
Every one who can remember what they were like when they learnt to drive surely would admit that practice makes perfect. The fact is that many pass their test without quite enough practice, in other words many drivers do not have enough experience when they are let loose on the roads & these early lessons might well address this issue.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 07:05 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
The RoSPA objection is that when children learn the mechanics of driving in a safe, traffic free environment they learn little about road safety and traffic awareness. Then when, at 17, they go on the road they will be dangerously over confident. RoSPA also think that these early trained drivers will pass their test after three or four lessons and without ever properly learning traffic awareness.

There might be some merit in their first argument - letting such drivers onto the public highway unsupervised would be disastrous - it falls down on the second.
I admit this is far from a perfect analogy, but it's the best I've got so far ...

Infants first learn to walk - and perhaps even run - in the closed course called home, under the loving supervision of their parents, if not at least loved family and friends.

What if, instead, kids had to wait to learn to walk until the age of 16 or so?
Further, imagine if every time someone jumped over an obstacle instead of walking around it, the privileged few who were trained by the state in Parkour (thus the only people licensed to use such maneuvers) chased him down and fined him for 'reckless acrobatics'?

Every time someone ran too fast, their picture would be taken, and they'd receive a NIP a fortnight later ... investigations would spring up every time some one bumped into someone else ...

We learn to walk long before we learn not to walk into people. We learn and go over basic motor skills ad infinitum before we learn to use them responsibly.

It need not be exactly so for driving, but ...
How many accidents could be avoided with 'superior motor skills'?
How many times have we stated that every time a so-called 'intelligent driver aid' must come to the rescue (ABS, Traction Control, Stability Control, Roll Control, Emergency Brake Assist, Lane Departure Prevention, Distance-Based Cruise Control with Emergency Stop), something has gone horribly wrong?

Where is that topic about how young drivers were unable to harmlessly negotiate a slalom in an 'old car' when I need it?

And who is the imbecile implying that we spend extra time teaching the finer points of motor vehicle operation to the exclusion of road safety and traffic awareness? I, for one, want more driver education, training, and testing - not more of one for less of the others, and certainly not less of all three.

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The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 08:04 
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The Rush wrote:
I admit this is far from a perfect analogy


Your analogy is fundamentally flawed in that, unlike driving, it is very unusual for dangerous or reckless walking to endanger other people

Quote:
And who is the imbecile implying that we spend extra time teaching the finer points of motor vehicle operation to the exclusion of road safety and traffic awareness?

RosPA believe that that is exactly what is happening. If they are correct, and I have no idea whether or not they are, then their concern is understandable.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 08:31 
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Quote:
Apparantly 40% less accidents have been noted in Switzerland due to these new courses - now available in the UK. :clap:


It seems to work for the Swiss!

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 16:23 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
The Rush wrote:
I admit this is far from a perfect analogy
Your analogy is fundamentally flawed in that, unlike driving, it is very unusual for dangerous or reckless walking to endanger other people
In that sense I suppose it is, but my point is that RoSPA is implying that additional ability to wield a vehicle is usually a bad thing.
Excess ability itself is not as dangerous. Attitudes based on an incomplete education are, IMEO, potentially far more dangerous.

dcbwhaley wrote:
The Rush wrote:
And who is the imbecile implying that we spend extra time teaching the finer points of motor vehicle operation to the exclusion of road safety and traffic awareness?
RoSPA believe that that is exactly what is happening. If they are correct, and I have no idea whether or not they are, then their concern is understandable.
Regardless of whether or not the RoSPA is correct, the proper course of action is both a greater quantity and quality of driver education, training, and testing.

_________________
The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 17:11 
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All the best skiers/swimmers etc. are taught from a very early age and surely, learning to handle a car on a test track, is no different to learning to ski/swim in a safer environment, such as an artificial slope or swimming pool. The most dangerous skiers on any piste are usually those with little experience who try and learn on wide open snowy slopes, where there are far too many faster and also inept skiers all jostling for space and teaching someone to swim in a choppy sea can't be as safe as in a swimming pool.

Good training in a controlled environment will help them fit in when it comes to the more dangerous "non controlled "roads. A second test on "real" roads would be necessary but passing some sort of "control" test, on safer tracks and skidpans could only be beneficial.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 20:12 
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graball wrote:
Good training in a controlled environment will help them fit in when it comes to the more dangerous "non controlled "roads. A second test on "real" roads would be necessary but passing some sort of "control" test, on safer tracks and skidpans could only be beneficial.


Twenty odd years ago I taught a couple of young adults to drive. In each case we spent the first weekend in the observatory grounds. At first on the carpark mastering the rudiments of clutch control, braking and gear changes. Then on the private roads practising simultaneous steering and gear changes at speeds of up to 25mph. When we sent on the road I was able to concentrate almost completely on teaching them how to deal with traffic situations, confident that they were in full control. And, as they were both experienced cyclists, they took very little time to get to the pass standard, after another session at the observatory learning to reverse and manoeuvre. To me a perfect system.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 20:46 
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On your'e/our travels -particularly in built up areas have you seen 'learners' who for safety reasons -should never be driving on a road with other motorists on it???? lets hope these lessons will put paid to this type of episodes. I well remember my brother going through a hedge when he got behind a wheel for the first time & he dented a wing I had just fitted !!!! Best to get the hang of it on an old aerodrome first I thought at the time......
Provide it would not cost much I've thought for many years that there should be retesting of everyone. Heating engineers have to show competancy every 5 years why not drivers ??????


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 22:49 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
The RoSPA objection is that when children learn the mechanics of driving in a safe, traffic free environment they learn little about road safety and traffic awareness.


Seems that in this day and age little attention is given to teaching children about road safety in any form . It used to be something done at school - teach them about road safety -how t ocross the road ,then how to be safe on the road ,with bits of the HC thrown in ,and the idea of HC as a rule book mentioned ,and above all the fact that car drivers/cyclists ( both pedal and power) /pedestrians were all Road Users .So that as budding car users they had a good grounding in road safety .
Perhaps ROSPA might sit back and go back to the basics -get the children young enough ,forget about indoctrinating them about political dogma and do what they used to do best -teach road safety .

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 22:53 
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Quote:
it is very unusual for dangerous or reckless walking to endanger other people


Is it?

I am sure that there must be many cases where "dangerous or reckless" pedestrians/joggers have caused serious injury or even death by knocking over or tripping up other pedestrians.

(I think it is reasonable to include runners as pedestrians or "walkers" for the purposes of this discussian)

And while a "dangerous or reckless walker/jogger" is likly to come off worse from a physical POV as a result of a colision with a motor vehicle (though, not nececarrily with a cyclist) the psycological and economic consequences of the "walkers" wrecklessness for his "Victim" are likly to be severe!

So I dont really think that it is reasonable to suggest that "wreckless walking" doesnt endanger other people!

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