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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 23:34 
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Karl Pesket wrote:
Campaign begins to switch speed cameras back on in UK town
Byt Karl Pesket - July 31st, 2010

The mother of a young boy killed by a speeding driver has begun a campaign to have speed cameras switched back on in her local area.

The council of Swindon, England, made the decision to switch its speed cameras off exactly one year ago, following the lead of Oxfordshire, which did the same due to budget cuts.

Caroline Hannah says that her seven-year-old son, Tyrese, could have been saved by speed cameras. Mrs Hannah was walking with her son and his dog when a speeding driver mounted the kerb, narrowly missing Mrs Hannah, but unfortunately crushing and killing Tyrese and his pet. Mrs Hannah has joined with a local charity to get the council to put the cameras back on line.
“I am disgusted with the lack of concern shown by Swindon Council for the safety of the public”, said Mrs Hannah. “I want them to know that people do care about road safety. The council should listen to the public who want the right to walk safely in their communities without fear of being mown down by speeding drivers.”
“They also need to take a look at the research on speed cameras instead of listening to the few fanatics who just don’t like being caught when they break the law. If there were speed cameras on Drove Road my son might still be alive. Instead he was killed by a selfish driver who knew he wouldn’t get caught for speeding.”

Mrs Hannah points to a four year national evaluation of speed camera effectiveness commissioned by the Department for Transport in 2005. The study showed there was a 70 percent reduction in speeding at fixed sites, a fall of six percent in average speeds and a 42 percent reduction in people killed and seriously injured. It also reported a positive cost-benefit ratio of speed cameras of 2.7:1 (PDF LINK here).

Despite this, Swindon’s bean-counters looked to the cost saving and switched its cameras off. So far, no study has been conducted to see if it has had an effect on the road toll.

What’s interesting is Australia has done the opposite. The amount of cameras are increasing, with the Western Australian government in particular, reaping hundreds of thousands of dollars in just one week of switching on its red-light/speed camera combination devices.
Bias on Selection is not accounted for and the figures quoted are prior to RTTM being reduced.
Then again this is all Free Travelling Speed not Impact Speed where the motorist has potentially reacted to the environment and developing hazard or the consideration of one.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 07:45 
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Was this in a location where there was previously a speed camera? If not, how would speed cameras have made any difference? Does she want a speed camera on every single road?

And surely the kind of "speeding driver who mounted the kerb" is likely to be a drunk or a twoccer who won't be deterred by cameras anyway.

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Mrs Hannah points to a four year national evaluation of speed camera effectiveness commissioned by the Department for Transport in 2005.

And she found this out herself independently and wasn't put up to it by shroud-wavers at BRAKE or RoadPeace? :scratchchin:

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 08:55 
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When I saw this on the news the other evening, my first thought was that the speed cameras did nothing to save her son.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 09:15 
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SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
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Karl Pesket wrote:
The council of Swindon, England, made the decision to switch its speed cameras off exactly one year ago, following the lead of Oxfordshire, which did the same due to budget cuts.


Isn't this the other way around? Nice to see journos getting even the simplest of fact correct when reporting on a complex issue.

Quote:
If there were speed cameras on Drove Road my son might still be alive. Instead he was killed by a selfish driver who knew he wouldn’t get caught for speeding.”


If there were assorted cheeses in the road he might also still be alive, the effects being at least similar. Personally I think the cheese would make the driver go "what the f" and slow down to ponder the origin, meaning and purpose of said carriageway-borne dairy produce.

I think what the lady really wants is Hawkeye on the kerb line, rather than speed cameras, no matter how twisted BRAKE have got her. She would also benefit from a class in independent critical thinking, and maybe statistical analysis.

Can we please get a Joey-Deacon-esque smiley, tongue in lower lip?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 18:03 
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How would a speed camera stopped him mounting the kerb?

:?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 18:33 
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He might have hit the speed camera and no one else, lets have them every few feet OR we could have safety railings...probably a little cheaper.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 19:30 
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Mrs Hannah was walking with her son and his dog when a speeding driver mounted the kerb,


First question -how does she know that the driver was speeding .Second question -was the mounting of kerb due to( presumed) loss of control due to inappropriate speed , a mechanical defect or a physical/mental defect with the driver ( always presuming that driver had licence etc .)

Then next question -cameras have been deemed to have magical properties ,but short of giving the kid a place of safety , how could some inanimate object prevent ( as in getting out and doing some preventive road safety), put itself between the car and kid . :D

I'm not commenting /ridiculing the kids name ...........................................but . :wink: :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 19:51 
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botach wrote:
I'm not commenting /ridiculing the kids name ...........................................but . :wink: :wink:



Nice?!!?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 20:39 
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weepej wrote:
botach wrote:
I'm not commenting /ridiculing the kids name ...........................................but . :wink: :wink:



Nice?!!?


Notice you don't ( and I dont ever expect you to or reply to a lot of questions you've been asked . ) comment on the accusations of speeding ,without proof - etc .

So ,weepy -unless you wish to give us the benefit of your worldly wisdom on all those unanswered questions you've dodged/fudged on -you could well be a fruit picker - any one for cherries .

As for the name ,that's to me the clue in his parent(s) background . Most (sensible and thoughtful) parents give some thought to the kids name .

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 21:22 
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botach wrote:
Notice you don't ( and I dont ever expect you to or reply to a lot of questions you've been asked . ) comment on the accusations of speeding ,without proof - etc .


You don't do badly at dodging issues yourself, Botach. But at least Weep is very rarely ad hominen

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As for the name ,that's to me the clue in his parent(s) background . Most (sensible and thoughtful) parents give some thought to the kids name .


So because you don't like a child's name the parents argument is not valid? Congratulations on inventing a new logical fallacy the argumentum ad nomine

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 21:29 
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The driver was speeding (50 on a 30), he got a three year prison sentence.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... years.html

Quote:
James Newton-Price, prosecuting, described how the group saw Austin's car approach them at speed and 'spinning out of control' before it mounted the pavement.

An eyewitness, motorist Jack Dunn, saw Austin speed away from a set off traffic lights and then only set eyes on the car again when he reached the scene of the accident, Mr Newton-Price said.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 21:35 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
You don't do badly at dodging issues yourself, Botach. But at least Weep is very rarely ad hominen



I don't dodge issues either, there are many threads with me peppered all over them discussing issues with several other posters haranguing me. Sometimes it's all I can do to exit or not pick everything up or I'd be sitting here 24 hours a day.

Suffice to say that very often it's me with about six or seven other posters generating many scenarios/questions, so it's not surprising that some go away thinking I've not answered them (when I've either already dealt with the same subject earlier on in the thread, or already stated my case).


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 22:32 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
botach wrote:
Notice you don't ( and I dont ever expect you to or reply to a lot of questions you've been asked . ) comment on the accusations of speeding ,without proof - etc .


You don't do badly at dodging issues yourself, Botach. But at least Weep is very rarely ad hominen

Quote:

What's so adhominie about his failure to reply to a lot of stuff, cherry picking which ones to reply to , and which to ignore -something weepy is well known for .Perhaps you might start looking at those posts weepy has failed to reply to - I've adopted a policy of now ignoring stuff that might elicit a pressure-cooker blood pressure response .
[quote="dcbwhaley"
So because you don't like a child's name the parents argument is not valid? Congratulations on inventing a new logical fallacy the argumentum ad nomine


I didn't say I didn't like the kids name -the rest is up to you're imagination- which seems quite fertile ,at the moment -

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 23:27 
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weepej wrote:
I don't dodge issues either....


It's a simple enough question that is being discussed. I'd just like your thoughts on this....

The mother of the dead child says he could have been save by a speed camera 'If there were speed cameras on Drove Road my son might still be alive. Instead he was killed by a selfish driver who knew he wouldn’t get caught for speeding".

Under what circumstances, if any, could that be true?

Barkstar

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 23:40 
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Barkstar wrote:
weepej wrote:
I don't dodge issues either....


It's a simple enough question that is being discussed. I'd just like your thoughts on this....

The mother of the dead child says he could have been save by a speed camera 'If there were speed cameras on Drove Road my son might still be alive. Instead he was killed by a selfish driver who knew he wouldn’t get caught for speeding".

Under what circumstances, if any, could that be true?

Barkstar


If the accident was caused by inappropriate speed and the posted speed limit was appropriate and the driver would have observed that limit if he was in sight of a camera.
A not inconceivable set of circumstances.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 01:57 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Barkstar wrote:
weepej wrote:
... I'd just like your thoughts on this....
Quote:
The mother of the dead child says he could have been save by a speed camera 'If there were speed cameras on Drove Road my son might still be alive. Instead he was killed by a selfish driver who knew he wouldn’t get caught for speeding".

Under what circumstances, if any, could that be true?
Barkstar


If the accident was caused by inappropriate speed and the posted speed limit was appropriate and the driver would have observed that limit if he was in sight of a camera.
A not inconceivable set of circumstances.

However by observing the limit because of the presence of a camera alone, the implication is that he would also have been thinking abut his driving (not necessarily true), that he would have been observing (not necessarily true), that he would have been driving carefully (not necessarily true), that he would have slowed seeing the parent, child and dog (not necessarily true), that he would have been anticipating hazards and developing hazards (not necessarily true), that he would have driven at the posted speed (possibly), but unless a driver is paying attention, thinking about all road situations and observing very well, no amount of speed camera presence will have or could have ever prevented this accident or any other.
Unless a motorist is paying attention and ensuring that they are travelling so that they can stop in the distance that they know to be clear then they are not travelling at an appropriate speed.
Even then we have to be sure that a motorist is properly taking all potential and developing hazards into good consideration and allowing properly for them too.
If a camera had been there they would have looked at the speedo and the camera focusing from one to another with only a minimal glance at the surroundings outside of those two prime points.
I cannot see any explanation as to what made the car 'spin' nor what induced it to mount the pavement, at the time, we only know the result.
50 in a 30 is a lot and especially with the two pedestrians and a dog it certainly was not appropriate.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 02:37 
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I can only suppose that the otherwise reasonable dcb has been enjoying his weekend and imbibing to genuinely expect to argue that a speed camera could actually have curbed a clearly dangerous driver. Where exactly should this camera be cited? Clearly it should be mobile, moving along the road with the boy and his dog as they progress!

This is not to mention the fallacy that anyone can take seriously the claim that poor weepej is so beleaguered that his blatant avoidance of certain points is down to him being so overwhelmed with the weight of replies. Were this to be the case one would expect him to reply solely to the points of merit, rather than ignoring these for those on which he can attempt to claim some point of victory. If one is stuck for a list of such avoided points then I believe Steve maintains a list, failing that then a simple search on weepej's username will yield plenty of results.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 07:32 
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RobinXe wrote:
I can only suppose that the otherwise reasonable dcb has been enjoying his weekend and imbibing to genuinely expect to argue that a speed camera could actually have curbed a clearly dangerous driver. Where exactly should this camera be cited? Clearly it should be mobile, moving along the road with the boy and his dog as they progress!


If I ever meet you, Robin, I will recognize you by the straw in your hair. I am soberly arguing, in reply to Barkstar's question, that there are circumstances, albeit unlikely ones, where a speed camera might have prevented that particular accident; not that such a method of preventing accidents is any more practical or desirable than scattering cheeses in the road.
Of course, even if one did believe that exceeding the speed limit is a major cause of death, one should still not be arguing for cameras. One should be arguing for technical means of limiting vehicle speed.
And I would like to remind you of the old aphorism about the difference between drunkenness and stupidly - a good nights sleep always cures the former.
[/quote]

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 09:08 
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RobinXe wrote:
I can only suppose that the otherwise reasonable dcb has been enjoying his weekend and imbibing to genuinely expect to argue that a speed camera could actually have curbed a clearly dangerous driver. Where exactly should this camera be cited? Clearly it should be mobile, moving along the road with the boy and his dog as they progress!


Depends whether you mean a speed camera, or speed camera site (of which a speed camera itself is only part of).

Plenty of evidence to show that incidents of speeding are reduced within a speed camera site, although obviously if one knows the site and where the camera is then one can speed up to the camera, slow down for it, and then speed up afterwards.

All for average speed cameras me for this very reason.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 09:29 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
RobinXe wrote:
Where exactly should this camera be cited? Clearly it should be mobile, moving along the road with the boy and his dog as they progress!
..., where a speed camera might have prevented that particular accident;...
Of course, even if one did believe that exceeding the speed limit is a major cause of death, one should still not be arguing for cameras. One should be arguing for technical means of limiting vehicle speed.
Excessive speed has only ever been shown to be a factor in 5% of all accidents (TRL595), never a cause - and those figures combine both 'over and under' the posted speed limit.
So how can addressing on a factor ever help prevent the root cause of an accident ?
weepej wrote:
Depends whether you mean a speed camera, or speed camera site (of which a speed camera itself is only part of).

Plenty of evidence to show that incidents of speeding are reduced within a speed camera site, although obviously if one knows the site and where the camera is then one can speed up to the camera, slow down for it, and then speed up afterwards.

All for average speed cameras me for this very reason.

A speed camera is the central focus of any speed camera site. A motorist only focuses on where it is and their speed, relative to their given position, during all progress through that area.
A motorist barely concentrates on anything else - do you agree Weepej & dcbwhaley ?
Why do you think this might be ? (And for sake of argument, no one has any points on their licenses.)

Now consider an average camera area, and then compare that effect to this one stretch of area where less time has been spent on the entire road environment and multiply it for that whole section.
What is the effect on the motorist ?

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