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PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 14:13 
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12092672
BBC news wrote:
Foreign drivers 'escaping millions in parking fines'
parking ticket London, Portsmouth and Edinburgh were among the areas with the highest value of written-off tickets

Millions of pounds in parking fines have been written off by councils over the last two years because they could not trace drivers of foreign-registered vehicles, figures show.

The unpaid fines were revealed after 20 UK councils and police forces responded to a Freedom of Information request.

Campaign group the Sparks Network said authorities would keep losing money unless the EU shared data.

UK transport minister Mike Penning said it was "a complex area".

But he said the government would do all it could to ensure effective cross-border co-operation.

Transport hubs

All of the 20 councils and police forces that responded had ferry terminals, ports and other major transport hubs near or in their area.

London, Portsmouth, Newcastle upon Tyne and Edinburgh were among the areas with the highest value of written-off tickets.

Westminster City Council said that between July 2007 and October 2010, 45,437 tickets issued to foreign-registered vehicles had been written off because the driver could not be traced - with £3.2m still owed.

Lee Rowley, the council's cabinet member for parking, said British taxpayers "could no longer foot the bill for foreign motorists who seem to think the rules of this country do not apply to them".

"We would like to see a more rigorous system put in place to hold these drivers to account and send a clear message that this blatant disregard of the law will not be tolerated," he said.

Portsmouth City Council said between April 2008 and 31 October 2010, £110,965 had been written off in parking fines issued to foreign-registered vehicles.

The council said: "On the expiry of a penalty charge notice (28 days), the DVLA [Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency] will advise registered keeper details and if they are overseas and outside Portsmouth City Council jurisdiction, then Portsmouth City Council cancels or writes off the amount."

Newcastle City Council said £84,470 had been written off in unpaid tickets between April 2008 and 6 December 2010.

Meanwhile, Edinburgh City Council said £233,993 had been written off in the 2008/09 financial year and a further£211,051 between April 2009 and 1 October 2010.

A spokeswoman said there were a "number of reasons why a parking ticket could be written off".
Co-operation call

"It could be because the driver cannot be traced; it could also be because signs or road markings were missing, or it could be because the parking attendant made a mistake during the ticket issue," she said.

Other councils said they either did not hold the details or a search of their records would exceed limits under Freedom of Information Act requests.

Bill Blakemore, director of the Sparks Network, an association of public authorities that campaigns for more effective cross-border traffic enforcement, said local authorities would carry on losing money until the government set up working arrangements with other European countries to share ownership data.

"Councils need to be able to quickly and easily identify foreign vehicle owners through their number plates, as some continental countries already do," he said.

"But so far the Department for Transport has not chosen to co-operate with our EU partners in this way."

Mr Penning said foreign drivers were subject to the same rules as drivers from the UK and must abide by parking rules.

"Local authorities have a range of enforcement options to target the vehicle of any motorist who consistently breaks parking laws and does not pay penalty charges to ensure that payment is secured," the minister said.

"This is a complex area and we will do all we can to ensure effective cross-border co-operation."

It seems to me that the various bodies involved have been dragging their feet over this issue.
Other countries have had agreements in place for years - France and Switzerland for instance.
If they can do it, why is it that this country has so much difficulty?

My parents live in France, so I guess it would be simple for me to register a vehicle there, as my family are backwards and forwards to France often enough!
I'd love to be able to park anywhere if I could not find a proper space, and never see the ticket!!

I know a few people like the idea that they won't get a ticket while abroad - so how many of you have actually GOT a ticket while abroad?
Was it for anything serious, or just parking?

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 11:09 
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So that would be deliberately taking steps to avoid apprehension and also avoid payment of fines as such....
Sounds suspiciously like attempting to pervert etc..

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 20:59 
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Ernest Marsh wrote:
My parents live in France, so I guess it would be simple for me to register a vehicle there, as my family are backwards and forwards to France often enough!

Simple but unlawful. The circumstances under which a foreign registered vehicle can be driven in the UK are limited. One of the limits is that if the owner becomes resident in the UK the vehicle must immediately be registered in the UK.

basic outline here
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/Bu ... G_10014623

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 21:31 
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fisherman wrote:
Simple but unlawful.


The rule says that if the keeper becomes resident, then the car must be registered here. But if you have an EU car, with a keeper who lives in, say, north America.... well, this is a good, legal and proper plan, as far as I can see.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 21:47 
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billyfat wrote:
fisherman wrote:
Simple but unlawful.


The rule says that if the keeper becomes resident, then the car must be registered here. But if you have an EU car, with a keeper who lives in, say, north America.... well, this is a good, legal and proper plan, as far as I can see.

Fisherman, further to this,

Can you say what would be the case if the owner, be it an individual or a company, was resident overseas, but allowed the driver resident in the UK as a named driver on a temporarily imported vehicle? Granted the continuous temporary importing/exporting of vehicles between the countries could become too much of a burden...

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 22:07 
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billyfat wrote:
The rule says that if the keeper becomes resident, then the car must be registered here. But if you have an EU car, with a keeper who lives in, say, north America.... well, this is a good, legal and proper plan, as far as I can see.
The registered keeper ( ie the person whose name appears on the registration document) may well live overseas. The keeper (ie the person with the keys who drives the vehicle ) would need to be here in order to drive the vehicle. When stopped driving a foreign registered vehicle it is the keepers responsibility to show that they are allowed to drive it without UK tax and insurance.

That would usually mean the police seizing the car until that can be done. Not much point dodging tax if it means you can't drive the car.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 22:18 
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Steve wrote:
Can you say what would be the case if the owner, be it an individual or a company, was resident overseas, but allowed the driver resident in the UK as a named driver on a temporarily imported vehicle? Granted the continuous temporary importing/exporting of vehicles between the countries could become too much of a burden...

The matter of registered keeper versus keeper needs to be taken into account. EU registered cars can only be here for 6 months out of any 12. They also need to be properly taxed (in the country of registration) and insured for use here. Probably not worth it in financial terms unless you intend to commit a lot of parking offences.

There are two legal exceptions to the rules which allow UK residents to use foreign registered cars but they are very limited in scope, applying only to employment status. There is a bit about this on the link I posted.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 22:36 
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fisherman wrote:
Probably not worth it in financial terms unless you intend to commit a lot of parking offences.

Thanks for that Fisherman.
BTW, I completely agree with you. This is much like the "infallible way to avoid a ticket" thread, both methods are just too much overhead/burden and compromise for something that probably won't happen anyway - unless one is a determined criminal!
Even then, such a method won't protect against being pulled by police patrols who can immediately get one's details and issue a NIP straight away.
So there could be some sort of loophole somewhere, but it's just not worth it.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 22:47 
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fisherman wrote:
The registered keeper ... The keeper


The keeper and the registered keeper are the same person at all times, in this arrangment. The registered keeper would drive the vehicle, were he here. Some other person is not barred from driving that vehicle, as far as you have said. As long as that "other person" is not a keeper, then things are proper and legal. As a person can decide whether to keep a car, then they need to declare that they are not a keeper to all and sundry, and (of course) don't keep it in any way that makes them liable. It is far safer to have a registered keeper who also keeps the car (from a remote distance out of British jurisdiction), and who has the right to drive it but cannot be prosecuted because he is not here.

Whether it is worth it is another question. But as a rule, should we prevent people from doing legal things?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 02:11 
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Firstly, if I was considering this as a course of action, I would have done it some time ago.

I have no real reason to do so, my line of thought was merely to prompt some debate.

However, with some access to information pertaining to owning and insuring a vehicle in France, I can state that it WOULD be lucrative!!
A family friend purchased a brand new VW Passat a few years back, saving £3500 off the price of a new Passat here - same spec. (It cost them £100 in fees to re-register the car, and £150 delivery charges to their home in France too).
My father has a Peugeot which is insured in France with Axxa - and his insurance is not only 2/3 the price of mine, but is also much more comprehensive, covering any family member (might actually be any driver) as well as damage to headlamps windscreen and bumpers, with no additional addition to the standard policy.
It also covers driving in any country in the EU without a green card, for up to four months at a time.

Were I to purchase and insure a vehicle in his name, I could drive it in the UK under French law with no penalty, fully insured for less money than it would cost here - and I could also get it serviced n France cheaper - excepting of course the cost of travelling to and from France - which I (or my brother) do anyway!!

The question remains - the French already have access to our data - address, licence categories etc., and will send a notification of any court ruling against you (I got a ticket for parking in a disabled space in Cherbourg - which I ignored because I didn't - and it was dated 4 days after I left France) the only thing they don't seem able to do is enforce these tickets each way - leading to the situation reported, where huge numbers of offences are going unpunished!

Of course the French have the right idea, and if you are STOPPED by a Gendarme - you have to pay CASH right away - or they SEIZE your vehicle until you pay. They WILL give you a lift to a cash machine - sometimes!!

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 07:54 
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billyfat wrote:
The keeper and the registered keeper are the same person at all times, in this arrangment.

The term "keeper" causes a lot of confusion. Not least because the legal system tends to use "registered keeper" to denote the person in whose name the car is registered and "keeper" to denote the person currently responsible for driving the car. However, it is clear that UK residents may not drive foreign registered cars unless one or other of the two exemptions applies.

DVLA wrote:
UK residents are not allowed to use a foreign registered vehicle on UK roads. The exception is when a UK resident:

* is employed or self-employed in another EU member state
* uses a EU registered company car temporarily in the UK for business purposes

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 08:12 
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Steve wrote:
So there could be some sort of loophole somewhere, but it's just not worth it.

I couldn't agree more.

My heart sinks when it becomes clear that a defendant is following one of these hopeless defences. I have seen defendants claim they can't be prosecuted because the police officer wasn't wearing his hat. i have seen defendants claim they can't be prosecuted because the traffic cop refused to give them a copy of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act at the roadside. When in a hole - stop digging.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:28 
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fisherman wrote:
However, it is clear that UK residents may not drive foreign registered cars unless one or other of the two exemptions applies.


No. There are other circumstances:
dvla wrote:
EU vehicles brought into the UK can be used for six months in any 12-month period. You do not need to register the vehicle in the UK as long as you can show that the vehicle complies with the registration and tax requirements of its home country.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:51 
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Ah, see what you mean now. You mean the car can be driven, but not by residents. I'm still a bit groggy here... OK, to qualify, don't "reside" in Britain, then you can drive the foreign car. Best places to use this loophole are the Irish borderlands, then. I must say, these dodges are getting a lot less useful.

I don't like that fuzzy definition of "keeper" versus "registered keeper" though. That needs sorting out. Who lets these badly phrased laws get through ...


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 13:05 
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Fisherman, could you post a link to the DVLA information please (btw, I'm not aruguing with you, just being lazy)

I frequently drive a foreign registered car in the UK, but I am interested in the definition of "UK resident" as applied by the DVLA, since I would say I am not.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 20:22 
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billyfat wrote:
No. There are other circumstances:
dvla wrote:
EU vehicles brought into the UK can be used for six months in any 12-month period. You do not need to register the vehicle in the UK as long as you can show that the vehicle complies with the registration and tax requirements of its home country.

Read a couple of lines down from that and you will see this
dvla wrote:
UK residents are not allowed to use a foreign registered vehicle on UK roads. The exception is when a UK resident:

* is employed or self-employed in another EU member state
* uses a EU registered company car temporarily in the UK for business purposes

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 20:24 
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billyfat wrote:
I don't like that fuzzy definition of "keeper" versus "registered keeper" though. That needs sorting out. Who lets these badly phrased laws get through ...
Its actually more confusing than that. Different laws use different phrases. Those two usually make things easier to follow.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 20:30 
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Odin wrote:
Fisherman, could you post a link to the DVLA information please (btw, I'm not aruguing with you, just being lazy)

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/Bu ... G_10014623



Odin wrote:
I frequently drive a foreign registered car in the UK, but I am interested in the definition of "UK resident" as applied by the DVLA, since I would say I am not.


We get presented with a number of different definitions of Uk resident or "ordinarily resident" which I think is the correct official term. The one we get most commonly is
Quote:
A person is ordinarily resident if they are normally residing in the United Kingdom (apart from temporary or occasional absences), and their residence here has been adopted voluntarily and for settled purposes as part of the regular order of their life for the time being. Decisions about whether a person is ordinarily resident will need to be based on all the circumstances of the particular case.

A person can be ordinarily resident in more than one country. The fact that a person might be said to have a home in another country does not mean that they cannot also be ordinarily resident in the United Kingdom.

If a person lives in the United Kingdom year after year, they should be treated as ordinarily resident here.



I don't know if this is set in statute anywhere, but it the phrase used by HM Revenue and Customs.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 22:09 
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Fisherman, firstly thanks.

And that was my understanding of UK resident, I have no "ordinarily resident" country, as far as I'm concerned I am an EU resident.


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