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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 14:11 
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Road Spending a Third of Motor Tax
IAM director of policy and research Neil Greig said: “This is highway robbery. Using so little of the taxes motorists pay on road upkeep is plainly unfair. Motorists are also paying the price as Britain’s potholed and increasingly dangerous roads take their toll, damaging tyres, wheels, steering and suspension.
“Cuts are clearly going to have an impact on transport investment, but as more roads become more potholed and dangerous, spending on infrastructure now will save money in the long-term.”

Road Spending a Third of Motor Tax
The Government takes more than three times more on motoring taxes than is spent on roads, latest official figures show.
In 2010, fuel taxes raised around £27 billion for the Treasury, with about £5 billion coming from vehicle excise duty (VED).

But the figures, from the Department for Transport (DfT), also showed that in 2010/11 just under £5.7 billion was spent on local roads and £3.75 billion was spent on national roads.

The 2010/11 statistics also revealed that £7.6 billion was spent on the railways, and £4.9 billion went to local public transport.
Total public spending on transport in the UK, including capital spending by public corporations, was £22.9 billion in 2010/11.

The DfT said VED almost doubled between 1987 and 2010 while the increase in revenue from fuel duty more than tripled.

The department added that, looking at the period 1997 to 2010, the overall cost of motoring (including purchase, petrol and oil and tax and insurance) had risen slowly, although there was a larger increase in 2010, and more slowly than the increase in the cost of living as measured by the retail prices index (RPI).

But when the purchase of a vehicle is removed, motoring running costs have risen faster than the RPI, and public transport fares have risen faster than RPI.

The DfT also published figures for VED evasion for 2011, which showed that about 0.7% of traffic on UK roads (including Northern Ireland) was being driven without a valid tax disc.

This equates to about 249,000 vehicles, down from an estimated figure of 307,000 for 2010.
The highest rate of evasion in 2011 was among motorcycles, with 2.1% not being properly taxed.
It is estimated that VED evasion could have cost around £40 million in Britain in 2011/12, down from the figure of £46 million in 2010/11.
Further department figures today showed that while passenger numbers on London buses continue to grow, patronage in the rest of England is falling. The number of bus passenger journeys in Wales and Scotland is on the increase.
Bus passenger journeys in London rose 1.9% in July-September 2011 compared with the same period last year, but total journeys in England fell 0.6%.
The July-September 2011 increase in Scotland was 0.3%, while in Wales it was 0.5%.

AA president Edmund King said: "Fuel duty alone contributes more than 5% of the public finances tax-take, including council tax. Like councils that have come to rely on parking income and fines from parking and moving traffic offences to prop up town hall coffers, the Treasury is beginning to find out how high fuel prices and tax have started to kill off the goose that lays the golden egg.
"Sadly, the victims of tax hikes are poorer motorists - helping to turn the clock back on social mobility and undermining the ability of the workforce to find new jobs.
"These latest Government figures show it is business as usual for UK drivers who contribute more than three times what they receive in service. This has been the way for a generation and leads to inadequate infrastructure and frustrated road users."

A Treasury spokesman said: "At the Autumn Statement, the Government took more action to help households with motoring costs by freezing fuel duty until next August and scrapping a second planned rise altogether. This came after our decision to cut fuel duty at Budget 2011 by 1p, abolish the fuel duty escalator and replace it with a fair fuel stabiliser.
"The Government has listened to genuine concerns from motorists and delivered support worth more than £4.5 billion over two years. Petrol and diesel will be an average of 10 pence per litre cheaper - and the average Ford Focus driver will be £78 better off in 2012-13 - than if we had proceeded with the previous government's planned escalator.
"Our national infrastructure plan also confirmed that we will invest over £1 billion in tackling congestion and improving our road network."
Perhaps if ALL fuel tax and Road Fund License Tax were spent on the roads then we'd have better roads.
It also ought to specify too that this is spent on the roads not on mega expensive and waste of time Gatso gantry cameras or highly expensive signs. Information signs are helpful but a waste when all they do is tell you some pointless fact like how long it will take you to reach the next junction !
Alternatively reduce the Road Fund license by 2/3rds so it reflects what is being spend on the roads ! :)

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 17:40 
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It's not a road fund licence.
It's just general taxation of road vehicles. the money is not hypothecated for roads, not for a long time:

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Hypothecation of VED into the Road Fund was formally ended under the Finance Act of 1936, in accordance with the recommendations of the Salter Report that controversially sought to introduce a balance between the road haulage industry and the railways. It had concluded that the method of road funding, which had relied on parishes and local authorities to fund a portion of the road network through their own means, represented a subsidy to the road hauliers.After the 1936 Act the proceeds of road vehicle duties were to be paid directly into the Exchequer. The Road Fund itself was finally wound up in the Miscellaneous Financial Provisions Act of 1955, becoming a system of funding through government grants.


Note the comments by Churchill about the "road fund":

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It will be only a step from this for them to claim in a few years the moral ownership of the roads their contributions have created


So you can see that arrogance, ignorance and condescension are the job of politicians, since a long time ago.

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56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 03:35 
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Yes I do appreciate that ... I was being a little tongue in cheek - I should have added a wink or two !
Perhaps it ought to be returned to this though - after all if the coffers are drying up then clear budgets is required surely, as opposed to a general pot? :)

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 09:12 
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SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
Perhaps if ALL fuel tax and Road Fund License Tax were spent on the roads then we'd have better roads...


I'm sure we would - but we'd probably have worse schools and hospitals though!


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:44 
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SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
Perhaps if ALL fuel tax and Road Fund License Tax were spent on the roads then we'd have better roads


And much higher income tax to cover the shortfall in revenue.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 14:45 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
Perhaps if ALL fuel tax and Road Fund License Tax were spent on the roads then we'd have better roads


And much higher income tax to cover the shortfall in revenue.

Yaaaaay to the motorist, who evidently subsidises everyone else.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 18:49 
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Steve wrote:
Yaaaaay to the motorist, who evidently subsidises everyone else.



It always amuses me when you and others speak of "The Motorist" as if they were a small beleaguered minority. In fact, if you define motorists as some one who has regular access to a motor car, over 80% of the adult population are motorists. So VED, petrol duty etc are merely subsidising the motorists other activities rather than paying for a large group of non motorists.

It seems that this canard cannot be laid to rest. I might just as well argue that me and my beer swilling cronies at the pub are subsidising non drinkers, since not a penny of the duty raised on alcohol goes back into pubs or breweries. Or that the airline tax is subsidising the great number of people who don't travel by air.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 18:59 
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Steve wrote:
dcbwhaley wrote:
SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
Perhaps if ALL fuel tax and Road Fund License Tax were spent on the roads then we'd have better roads


And much higher income tax to cover the shortfall in revenue.

Yaaaaay to the motorist, who evidently subsidises everyone else.



Well, apart from motoring being a subsidised activity that is...


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 19:53 
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That's according to the greens, themselves a bunch of :censored:

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 20:26 
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weepej wrote:
Well, apart from motoring being a subsidised activity that is...

To the tune of over £20B, each and every year?
edited to add:
Make that nearly £40B !!


dcbwhaley wrote:
It always amuses me when you and others speak of "The Motorist" as if they were a small beleaguered minority.

Minority: possibly not (I have never said they are, nor does my argument rely upon it).
Beleaguered: certainly! (tax, ever more limited access, needless criminalisation, and lets not forget about parking ...)

Motorists are subsidising those who have access to roads/transport who also may not want to drive; by your same logic, this group probably cannot be considered to be a minority as I suspect just as many regularly use public transport or cycle.
Regardless, it does seem that motorists are subsidising.

dcbwhaley wrote:
I might just as well argue that me and my beer swilling cronies at the pub are subsidising non drinkers, since not a penny of the duty raised on alcohol goes back into pubs or breweries.

Which is exactly what the smokers have been arguing (even when accounting for their incremental care costs).

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 00:19 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Steve wrote:
Yaaaaay to the motorist, who evidently subsidises everyone else.



It always amuses me when you and others speak of "The Motorist" as if they were a small beleaguered minority. In fact, if you define motorists as some one who has regular access to a motor car, over 80% of the adult population are motorists. So VED, petrol duty etc are merely subsidising the motorists other activities rather than paying for a large group of non motorists.

It seems that this canard cannot be laid to rest. I might just as well argue that me and my beer swilling cronies at the pub are subsidising non drinkers, since not a penny of the duty raised on alcohol goes back into pubs or breweries. Or that the airline tax is subsidising the great number of people who don't travel by air.


Well I'm sure, in a sense, you are doing just that! In fact, one could argue that ANYONE who engages in an activity that is subject to a (non-hypothecated) tax is subsidising everyone else! I see Weepy's been on and made his usual assertion, but whilst I admit that hardcore pedestrians might pay a bit more VAT on their shoe leather than I do, I still don't see how the motorist (and those who derive any benefit from the road network) are being subsidised by the absolutely tiny minority that don't!


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 02:19 
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If we look at who uses the road for a moment we can see (I think) that we all pay.
First, motorists include, all vehicles from, all the commercial activities, including lorries, buses, trams to smaller vans, and then business vehicles and services, including postal & couriers, all business travel, taxi's, chauffeurs, funeral (very apt for today especially :( etc., etc.
Private vehicles, include all those who are travelling to work, visiting clients, or clients visiting those service or product facilities, then all the volunteer services, and so on & so on...
Pedestrians, are many of those who have travelled for every reason above and more, of course, as well as those who have arrived by other public transport services (trains & planes), and then those who live nearby and walk (jog etc.).
Cyclists, who might also be pedestrians at some point in their trip, and use the pavements and to differing degrees the road itself.

We all need to use the whole road network to survive (how else will foodstuffs, livestock, and all other purchased items be available for sale or delivered)?
If any one of those products or services are not on offer, then our choice is reduced, and that would see people complaining. Look what happens in the snow and when transport slows or halts, food supplies are reduced rapidly as people panic by.

Then all of us pay for Council Tax in our own area, and pay for other taxes to pay for those transport services, whether it is when we buy goods, or services, or more directly with road fund licences or other Council required licences or regular services. The the gov subsidies many transport services too.
Although cyclists, steam locomotives, horse riders and drivers, & skate borders are some of the few direct users of the road themselves, who do not pay a direct fee to anyone to travel on the road, they have likely contributed, when they buy goods and services albeit indirectly or when they pay their taxes.
Should they 'pay' to use the road, well what about if the government placed a tax on tyres for these modes of transport? If they did would that be some compensation? (Most horse driven carriages use 'tyred wheels' these days). The horsey people will likely say that most of the time they have to travel to locations, to follow their chosen pursuit, and so pay for fuel and vehicles duties anyway so in which case it is only those who do not travel, and only leave from home. Therefor is it then, only the local Councils who should receive an additional tax (if at all) for local road use by all these local based people ? But then we have council tax for that use (?)...
And isn't this the point, we do all pay through various means to provide for road networks for all of us to travel, to provide the products and services, and for all those who need to buy or receive, all those products and services ?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:46 
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The government pays loads for my transport.....and the 'bus companies make millions from it...Every time I use the travel concession I ticket to the end of route...even when I get off way back down...which goes to the 'bus companies along with their other subsidies....like rebated fuel, recon engines (at our expense)....and the passenger subsidies....
Loads of travel concession holders do free trips just for the hell of it..
It all goes along with my massive freeloading over my motoring life.....to go along with the green freeloading that is included in practically everything the government does now.....like gas, electricity and water....in case you hadn't looked at your sewage charges lately.....all just an excuse to tax...

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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 Post subject: And more subsidy.....
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:31 
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Quote:
The government spends more money on transport projects for Londoners than on those for the rest of the country combined, a think tank says.

The Institute for Public Policy Research North says £2,700 is spent per person in London compared with £5 per head in the north-east of England.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-16235349

Not surprising they have the "best public transport"....

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 19:05 
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Actually road spending accounts for all of "road tax" collected, and more.
And public transport accounts for 3 billion more than roads.
So rail/bus fares should be some 600% higher than they are.
Unless you have "green" leanings, in which case it's all someone elses fault.

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 22:04 
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jomukuk wrote:
The government pays loads for my transport.....and the 'bus companies make millions from it...Every time I use the travel concession I ticket to the end of route..

i've also got a bus pass( what I call a geriatric pass) . Something I've long suspected is that even stating that I'm getting off short of the bus station , the ticket always states to the bus station . Possibly this is because of fare stages ,where I'm passing the last one before the bus station -I don't know ,but when my 60 year ol wife has to pay because of HMG fidling with pension ages - do I care ?

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