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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 16:33 
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The Telegraph here
The Telegraph wrote:
80mph speed limit 'risks rise in road deaths and obesity’
6:00AM GMT 06 Jan 2012

Increasing the motorway speed limit by 10mph will raise death rates, obesity and asthma levels, outweighing the economic benefits, experts have warned.
The laws on highways and freeways changed from 65mph to 70mph-75mph and from 55mph to 60mph-65mph Photo: Steve Parsons/PA

An editorial in the British Medical Journal by researchers from the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine criticises government proposals to raise the limit on all motorways in England and Wales from 70mph to 80mph by 2013.

The Government argues that deaths on roads have fallen by 75 per cent in the past 55 years because of advances in car safety and ministers think increasing the speed limit makes sense as “almost half of all drivers break the current limit anyway”.

Since 1967 the number of serious and fatal accidents has continued to fall to a level where Britain has one of the lowest rates of road deaths in the world.

The researchers challenge all of the Government’s arguments. They question the basis of the suggested economic benefits, given that the higher limit will not extend to heavy good vehicles.

Their main concern draws on research which links an “exponential” increase in crashes resulting in injury and death to a rise in speed limits. In the US, higher speed limits introduced in 1995 resulted in a 16.6 per cent increase in deaths due to vehicle accidents.

The speed limit increase followed a reduction in speed in 1975 in response to the 1974 oil crisis. The laws on highways and freeways changed from 65mph to 70mph-75mph and from 55mph to 60mph-65mph.

The researchers identify other health-related reasons for keeping the current limit, including the increase of gas emissions, air pollution and a potential rise in obesity due to more people taking advantage of shorter car journeys.

Martin McKee, professor of European public health at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, said: “It is difficult to see how any benefits of an 80mph speed limit would outweigh the costs.
“Past evidence shows that speed limit increases lead to substantial rises in road deaths, as well as other potential negative health and economic impacts.”
He said that the proposal appears to be a “populist gimmick” by the Government.
Prof McKee added: “Given the recent loss of life on the M5, we challenge the Government to produce the evidence to justify their policy with its attendant risks to life.”

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 17:46 
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Quote:
...obesity due to more people taking advantage of shorter car journeys

Jeepers creepers, what kind of anti-motorist nonsense is this!

Clearly they have gone through the bottom of the barrel.

There's more. They are trotting out the old "faster motorways lead to more deaths" propaganda.
See this for an important rebuttal.

And need I talk about fatigue, with our country's high-quality motorways being most prone to this effect?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 20:00 
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I despair, I really do! And this bloke's a professor, for pity's sake!

Steve's hit the nail on the head, but I still feel obliged to say it again!

"...including the increase of gas emissions, air pollution..."

Really? He can prove that,can he? CO2 emissions, yes. Other air pollutants? Not sure to be honest! I don't think it follows any particularly linear relationship?

"...and a potential rise in obesity due to more people taking advantage of shorter car journeys..."

Oh, so there IS an acknowledgement of a benefit then? That's interesting, I thought one of the main counter-arguments that has been made is that nobody wil lsave any time? MAKE YOUR MINDS UP!!!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 20:15 
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Reminds me of what was said about the introduction of trains going more than 20mph . :D

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 20:43 
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Just type in "Dyonisius Lardner" into your search engine.

I am beginning to believe in reincarnation !

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 21:44 
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And just what qualifications do "researchers from the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine" have so that they can question the economic benefits of increased speed limits? About the same as the Chancellor of the exchequer questioning the benefits of heart bypass surgery

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 22:48 
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It also occurred to me that all the continentals have to do to tackle their obesity problems, is to drop their speed limits!
oh, er, hang on... :roll:


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 23:35 
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Mole wrote:
It also occurred to me that all the continentals have to do to tackle their obesity problems, is to drop their speed limits!
oh, er, hang on... :roll:

Let's go further. By their own logic, we could tackle obesity by banning all public transport. You see, when on buses and trains you have all the time and freedom you want to stuff your face (try eating behind the wheel and see how long you last without getting busted).

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 00:52 
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Steve wrote:
Let's go further. By their own logic, we could tackle obesity by banning all public transport. You see, when on buses and trains you have all the time and freedom you want to stuff your face (try eating behind the wheel and see how long you last without getting busted).
:clap: :clap:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 08:15 
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Steve wrote:
There's more. They are trotting out the old "faster motorways lead to more deaths" propaganda.
See this for an important rebuttal.


For those who can't be bothered to click that link, it has little to do with the 70 to 80mph argument,

This has:


Quote:
Though he did not say so, Hammond [in supporting a new 80mph limit] was using research published in 2009 by the Transport Research Laboratory (‘An evaluation of options for road safety beyond 2010’, available at http://www.trl.co.uk/online_store/reports_publications/) to back up his case that the move would deliver substantial economic benefits. What he did not say was that to prevent illegal speeding, the research was based on the notion that 800 new camera systems measuring average speed would be needed, because, of course, speed cameras were seen to be the Panzer tanks of ‘the war on the motorist’. Nor did he mention why the researchers dismissed the idea of increasing the speed limit. They concluded that it would cause an extra 18 deaths annually, as well as 63 serious injuries, which ‘makes the proposal unacceptable to DfT as part of a road safety strategy’. Not, it seems, any more. Hammond clearly calculates that the extra deaths are worth it as the speed up of journeys – more than four minutes per hour would deliver more benefit than the cost of the accidents. It’s a cold calculation which he did not share with his audience.


http://www.christianwolmar.co.uk/2011/1 ... mph-limit/

There's also the argument that increased limits may very well slow things down at peak times, when most people want to get where they are going more quickly.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 09:33 
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Quote:
There's also the argument that increased limits may very well slow things down at peak times, when most people want to get where they are going more quickly.




From my experience of motorways you rarely hit 70 let alone 80MPH at peak times, however, peak times amount to about what...four to six hours a day?

What about drivers using motorways for the full 24 hours of a day, doesn't their journey count?

I do love it, when part time drivers believe that the UK road network is there purely for them to get from home to work/school and back and the rest of the UK's drivers should adjust the rest of their driving day, just to fit in with their little commute every day.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 21:21 
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weepej wrote:
Steve wrote:
There's more. They are trotting out the old "faster motorways lead to more deaths" propaganda.
See this for an important rebuttal.


For those who can't be bothered to click that link, it has little to do with the 70 to 80mph argument,

How do you come to that conclusion? Please explain.

The link I gave clearly shows that there is a system wide casualty reduction (a benefit) which is a direct consequence of raising the limit on these fast roads.
And you think this has little to do with the proposed raising of the motorway limit?!?


weepej wrote:
This has:
Quote:
...They concluded that it would cause an extra 18 deaths annually, as well as 63 serious injuries, which ‘makes the proposal unacceptable to DfT as part of a road safety strategy’.

http://www.christianwolmar.co.uk/2011/1 ... mph-limit/

Again, my previously given rebuttal is extremely pertinent to your quoted comment above: that there is indeed a genuine benefit to be had even when disregarding any financial gains.
Claims like what you quoted are dangerously misleading; acting upon your sentiments will overall cost more lives than it saves.

You are remarkably selective weepej. A shocking portion of your recent posts contain basic, obvious and verified errors and fallacies. You might want to reconsider your thought processes.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 21:28 
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graball wrote:
Quote:
There's also the argument that increased limits may very well slow things down at peak times, when most people want to get where they are going more quickly.




From my experience of motorways you rarely hit 70 let alone 80MPH at peak times, however, peak times amount to about what...four to six hours a day?

What about drivers using motorways for the full 24 hours of a day, doesn't their journey count?

Furthermore, many motorways can safely sustain +70mph at peak times; the one nearest me does it with ease.

graball wrote:
I do love it, when part time drivers believe that the UK road network is there purely for them to get from home to work/school and back and the rest of the UK's drivers should adjust the rest of their driving day, just to fit in with their little commute every day.

Well said!

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 00:57 
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Steve wrote:
graball wrote:
I do love it, when part time drivers believe that the UK road network is there purely for them to get from home to work/school and back and the rest of the UK's drivers should adjust the rest of their driving day, just to fit in with their little commute every day.

Well said!


And very indicative of the classist attitude of many on here!

Quite what makes your journey more important than theirs?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 00:59 
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Steve wrote:
You are remarkably selective weepej. A shocking portion of your recent posts contain basic, obvious and verified errors and fallacies. You might want to reconsider your thought processes.


I.e. Steve links to yet more posts that do not back up what he states in his linking post.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 01:51 
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weepej wrote:
Steve wrote:
graball wrote:
I do love it, when part time drivers believe that the UK road network is there purely for them to get from home to work/school and back and the rest of the UK's drivers should adjust the rest of their driving day, just to fit in with their little commute every day.

Well said!


And very indicative of the classist attitude of many on here!

Quite what makes your journey more important than theirs?

Wow, I can't believe you didn't get the irony of that.

Read it again, and this time look inwards for a surprise. I wonder if you will spot it :roll:


weepej wrote:
Steve wrote:
You are remarkably selective weepej. A shocking portion of your recent posts contain basic, obvious and verified errors and fallacies. You might want to reconsider your thought processes.


I.e. Steve links to yet more posts that do not back up what he states in his linking post.

Weepej is selective with yet more responses, and continues not to substantiate his claims.

Weepej, the part of the post that you didn't quote (i.e., evaded):
Steve wrote:
weepej wrote:
Steve wrote:
There's more. They are trotting out the old "faster motorways lead to more deaths" propaganda.
See this for an important rebuttal.


For those who can't be bothered to click that link, it has little to do with the 70 to 80mph argument,

How do you come to that conclusion? Please explain.

The link I gave clearly shows that there is a system wide casualty reduction (a benefit) which is a direct consequence of raising the limit on these fast roads.
And you think this has little to do with the proposed raising of the motorway limit?!?


weepej wrote:
This has:
Quote:
...They concluded that it would cause an extra 18 deaths annually, as well as 63 serious injuries, which ‘makes the proposal unacceptable to DfT as part of a road safety strategy’.

http://www.christianwolmar.co.uk/2011/1 ... mph-limit/

Again, my previously given rebuttal is extremely pertinent to your quoted comment above: that there is indeed a genuine benefit to be had even when disregarding any financial gains.
Claims like what you quoted are dangerously misleading; acting upon your sentiments will overall cost more lives than it saves.

So why exactly did you ignore all of that? Why did you ignore the question that would have allowed us to drive towards a conclusion? It was even highlighted in bold! :headbash:

I can't help but suspect you didn't even read the paper given within the rebuttal link; so did you?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 02:20 
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Been looking at this article that relates to the 80mph limit here and it lists this TRL document -An evaluation of options for road safety beyond 2010 ...
http://www.christianwolmar.co.uk/2011/1 ... mph-limit/
http://www.trl.co.uk/online_store/reports_publications/ - An evaluation of options for road safety beyond 2010
If they wish to place 800 speed cameras on the roads, it will not feel that the 'war has ended on the motorist' but perhaps continues unabated and make our safest roads less so.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 09:28 
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weepej wrote:
Steve wrote:
graball wrote:
I do love it, when part time drivers believe that the UK road network is there purely for them to get from home to work/school and back and the rest of the UK's drivers should adjust the rest of their driving day, just to fit in with their little commute every day.

Well said!
And very indicative of the classist attitude of many on here!

Quite what makes your journey more important than theirs?

OOOPs, having trouble understanding that post are we, Weepej?....;-)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 19:54 
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Quote:
y weepej on Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:57 pm

Steve wrote:

graball wrote:I do love it, when part time drivers believe that the UK road network is there purely for them to get from home to work/school and back and the rest of the UK's drivers should adjust the rest of their driving day, just to fit in with their little commute every day.


Well said!



And very indicative of the classist attitude of many on here!

Quite what makes your journey more important than theirs?


But the point is, that you seem to have totally missed here, Weepej, NO-ONES journey is any more important than any other persons...which is why motorways or any other road, should NOT be restricted for 24 hours of the day JUST BECAUSE they are either (a) congested, (b) more dangerous or whatever for just a couple of hours of the day. The road network is a 24 hour service and just because certain people only use it or have experience of it, for a couple of hours a day, what makes you think these selfish people should restrict it's use for the full 24 hours, just because people like you may get stuck in traffic jams or whatever, when you happen to be using it?

What's the next bright idea...close it down apart from rush hour periods???

That's exactly my gripe against the traffic light epidemic. Just because councillor brown's wife has trouble getting off her housing estate to take little johnnie to school five mornings a week, the traffic that uses that junction for the other 23 hours of the day, has to suffer waiting in traffic lights when the roads are virtually deserted, just so that Mrs Brown can pull out on to an island or whatever without accelerating over 2000 revs.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 23:00 
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graball wrote:
What's the next bright idea...close it down apart from rush hour periods???


Who suggested that?

I'm just saying be careful what you wish for, increased motorway speed may result in slower journeys!

I understand peak flow on motorways is achieved under a camera enforced 50mph speed limit, less chopping and changing as cars try to over take each other due to inconsistent speed, drivers are given more time to think/react and make better decisions, are less stressed, and there are less crashes that result in lane/carriageway closure...


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