Safe Speed Forums

No, it's betting on a rise in number based on rising fuel costs, increased availability of alternative vehicles, increased public awareness of the alternatives, improved charging infrastructure, better consumer choice etc etc. The government subsidy doesn't actually make that much difference. For most EVs it certainly doesn't make up the difference between the cost of the EV and the cost of the equivalent ICE vehicle.


I think the industry already knows about those. WHat's more, there will be others that it doesn't know about yet - all part of the "brave new world". The car as we know it, has had about 100 years to evolve to where it is today. there were (and still are) plenty of problems to overcome with existing technology. (Blocked particulate filter anyone)? EVs will have problems too, just different problems.



And your solution is...?

It's all very well whining about any of the alternatives offered, where are all your "poor people" going to be when petrol is £10 a gallon? We (as a civilisation) need to wean ourselves off fossil fuels for a variety of reasons. That's not going to happen without a pretty big push either by regulation / incentive / whatever. Today, all "poor people" benefit from features and technologies on their cars that were once only ever available to "rich people".

There's an increasing range of choice from little city cars like the i-MiEV, up to Transit-sized vehicles just now. Loads more on the way.

Yes, I agree. There are a few problems though. One of the biggest barriers to a wider uptake of EVs is the perceived problem with range. It's absolutely true that 90+% of Mrs Mole's journeys are under 30 miles too. The sensible solution is, as you suggest, having more than one type of vehicle per household. Another issue though, is that because of the limitations of current battery technology, you need to have a bigger range then you need when the car is new because of this probem whereby Li-ion batteries loose a bit of capacity each year. By the time you can't do your 30 miles, the car won't be worth the cost of a new battery. That's a big probem that we need to overcome (plus an allowance for delays in on winter nights when the heater / lights etc are eating up your battery capacity even though you're not moving). There are a few lead-acid cheap city runabouts but they're really awful cars. A lot of the problem is that the people who can currently afford an EV wouldn't really want one. Then there are a variety of safety issues with lead-acid, which can be quite hard to manage.


I think that's a really good idea! Some of the most expensive / gas-guzzling vehicles out there are bought by people who could very easily afford a little EV at the same time - if only to ease their consciences! (Although I dunno, maybe people that rich don't have consciences?)! Either way, if tying the purchase of a supercar / gas guzzler to the purchase of a small EV is a way of increasing the numbers of small EVs in circulation so that they can drop to a price that me and thee could afford, bring it on! That'll be the "poor people" getting back some of their investment in EV subsidies!

The problem with the disabled cars (at least the wheelchair-accessible ones) is that they have lowered floors to facilitate wheelchair access and packaging the batteries would be a nightmare. Also, some electric wheelchairs are now so heavy, that the accessible vehicles are struggling to carry the weight of the wheelchair - never mind the batteries! As for the other sorts of disabled persons' vehicles, they're mostly financed by Motability - who, like most fleet buyers, will be dead scared of the unknown residual values of an EV at the end of its lease. In terms of usage profile though ,I agree they'd b perfect - they're pretty much, by definition, automatic for a start!

I've always thought a good niche would be electric hearses. They don't have to go very fast or very far. Being quiet is a positive advantage, and there's loads of space / carrying capacity for the batteries!

I say again, what's YOUR solution?

Personally , when my time comes ,I won't be caring it it's quiet or sounds like a jumbo jet . And as for EV's , if the technology has improved so much ,then why haven't we seen an increase or revival in electric milk floats . But that's possibly because most milk delivery was priced out of the market by supermarkets .

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

My solution ?
To the subsidised crop of electrically-driven vehicles we have now ?
Not to mention the subsidised batteries, or in many cases RENTED batteries ?
Yes, we are going to [be forced to] move to electric vehicles. The internal combustion engine has had its day. Both types will be produced, battery and ICE-battery (heavily filtered diesel is better) to give both convenience and range.
Trucks ?
Well, if the EU has its way (and don't forget the EU tells this government what to do, after this government has told the EU what it wants to be told to do) the truck is on a short chain as well....maybe another 15-20 years before the hgv is a dodo, replaced by rail/m/way with distribution hubs. Good.
But the future is far from rosy. The revenue slipping away is going to be countered by road charging/pricing (yes it is....the technology is available, the satellites are going up now, it is tested and proven and it IS coming).
Power is another not-so-cosy problem....if the green communists get their way the only "power" stations will be wind, solar or geothermal (maybe not that...risk of earth tremors...).so you may only be allowed to charge at some times.....courtesy of your remote switch-off device.
Nuclear ?
Yeah...note that several companies pulled-out of this governments nuclear plans so things ain't going so well, and the UK has no nuclear construction industry any more.
Gas. Ok, got the amber light for fracking....but the EU is anti-frack so we can expect some grief coming from that totalitarian regime soon....and anyway the gov has said they'll tax it and sell it abroad...so we may well end up paying more because the people who produce it sell it on and we end up buying it back in....sigh...shades of the north sea again.
Coal ?
Not much chance of that is there....
It may well be cheaper to buy your electric car, charge it all night, and sell the electricity back during daytime peaks....and never drive it on the road.....what with the purchase subsidy and the depreciation !

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

What is interesting to see is that our council has put in an EV charging point in a P&D car park close to the town hall . Personally ,I've never seen any EVs in this town, but my thought is do councils get a subsidy for provision of these EV spaces ?
Come to think of it ,I have -it's an electric moped with no plates ( simply some stupidly marked plate ,in place of VRN) using the pedestrian side of our local park .

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

You said it, that is the nub of the road safety issue right there. A total confusion between speed and observation / behaviour. If my Gran (as an example) can drive at a safe distance, and is observant, then driving can be inclusive. She does not need particulary fast reactions to remain safe. We need to train people better then eliminate those that can't be safe at ANY speed.

Why is 70 safe? Answer it isn't. Partcicularly. Its just too slow to make the car as useful as its potential suggests.

I drive in Germany a lot. 130mph is still easy to manage. I decide how fast to travel based on personal requirements and road conditions. That's how it should be. The system should support it and casualities would reduce if drivers actually took the whole thing as seriously as the physics demand.

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Enjoying the twilight years of personal freedom in the UK (and my M3) :)

Casualties would reduce if drivers took driving seriously and didn't just see it as a means of getting from A to B.

There are far too many people who see espousal of the "A to B" philosophy as "green" or "morally sound" in some way. If everyone was actually interested in driving, wanted to do it and understood it better then it would be beneficial to all.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Now council fleet vehicles are a prime candidate for EV.... low mileage, predictable duty cycle, overnight charging. So is already becoming quite common to see various EVs in these fleets.

I was going to suggest it may be part of the CABLED trial, but can't see any charge points marked over yonder.

(some first year findings for you all to pick to pieces http://cabled.org.uk/news/first-years-findings/ can't say that i've read them mind)

As I now you're local to me , park mentioned is the PUBLIC one at rear of Council House in Nuneaton. For PUBLIC, rather than Council staff use . And I've not seen Treacletown with an EV on the road .If they had, then matey Dennis would be shouting it from the rooftops .

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/9645663.Shock_low_usage_at_electric_car_charging_points/

And:



http://climatechangedispatch.com/home/10140-shale-cars-the-new-transport-revolution

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

With gas conversions,I wonder how many potential users have seen what's happened in the past. New fuel,gets HMG blessing and low tax rate. After a big uptake, the tax rate gets hiked, and there's no gain . How many Chancellors have one shoe with signs of buckshot in it . Only one truth when referring to fuel and HMG. When the Chancer at No11 tells us that he's looking favourably on one fuel over another ,he's not lying. Just using his right to express a terminological inexactitude .

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

Hmmmmmm:



http://money.aol.co.uk/2012/04/27/government-overstates-mpg-data/

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

Ho hum.

I thought everyone knew that these numbers are just for comparison purposes and not an expectation of actual fuel usage.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Apparently not.
Maybe that's why my old fiesta (1.1, OHV, injection) did over 40mpg on a trip and about 30 around town....and so does a friends ultra modern clio.......both fitted with cats...
The only thing that seems to have improved is the ability to go in circles.

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

There are some issues around EVs - one is the reliance on Lithium - at current rate of usage I think (from a presentation I found from the mining industry a year or so back) the mineable supply of lithium won't last too long and we will have to extract from sea water. Battery technologies need at advance.

Nevertheless I can see the merit of the short range EV. I'm in the process of changing my high performance car for a higher performance car and an EV for local use might make sense I thought... I saw the new Renault Twizy - only 6 or 7 grand to buy... BUT you have to lease the battery - at a minimum of £45 per month. My wife spends about that on petrol driving a 2 litre turbo estate car...

Plus I have a bus pass...

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I won't slave for beggar's pay,
likewise gold and jewels,
but I would slave to learn the way
to sink your ship of fools

Yeah, I'm thinking the same way. Most mornings either I or my wife drive just over 3 miles to take the kids to school and three miles home - and repeat the journey again in the afternoon - sometimes twice if only one of them is doing an after-school activity! All the EV manufacturers seem keen to provide a MUCH bigger range than I'd want an EV for, so the batteries are ridiculously expensive. If it was cheap enough, I'd be interested in an EV with (say) only a 20 mile range. In fact, maybe the manufacturers should just provide a little drop-down menu when you're ordering one, so you can select from a range of, er, ranges! It would be unusual (on the little single-track roads to the school) to need more than 40MPH either. In fact, I've been wondering about Dusty's idea of just doing a simple DIY one. Basically a low-tech, somewhat inefficient electric powertrain bodged into a conventional small hatchback. Major manufacturers (either due to customer pressure or legal requirements, or both) have to put ABS, ESC, airbags, and all manner of trick stuff in there that I (personally) don't really want.

If anyone fancies a 100 page (and pretty dull!) read on the future of EV propulsion, there's a report in the public domain here:

http://www.axeon.com/getdoc/77fbadce-7d ... ublic.aspx

Basically, they're expecting a halving in cost and 30% reduction in mass of a typical battery pack by 2020 and 70% reduction in cost and a 45% reduction in mass by 2030.

Re Lithium AIUI the situation is as follows....

Ironically Lithium is one of the universes more common elements, unfortunatly it does not seem to have formed the chemical compounds on the Earth that are inclined to form conventianal concentrated ore deposits so available Lithium mostly remains in solution in seawater (In principle, like all other minerals, it could be mined from Granite, but that would be hopelessly expensive). In some rare locations such as Bolivia (The Saudi of Lithium), salt pans have high (relativly) concentrations of Lithium that can be effectivly mined. However, the total reserve is small. Until the battery revolution Lithium production (Global) was measured in the tens of thousands of tons per year! Total ultimatly exploitable global reserves have been extimated as being in the order of ten million tons

( You need about half a kilo of Lithium per KWHr in a battery! Anybody can build an EV, The trick is being able to build a Billion of them!)

Added to that, Bolivia has been insisting on conditions for exploiting its reserves. They want the profits from Lithium exploitation to be spent in Bolivia. Cant say I blmae them Myself I'd do the same, There are other coutries with significant Lithium reserves, but they are poor as well and if Bolivia "Gets away with it" they might well impose similar restrictions which does mean that the expansion of lithium production is likly to be slow and prices are unlikly to fall.

I havent checked this but I remember reading a couple of years back that though extraction from seawater is possible, it is so expensive a process that it would only make economic sense for the production of fusion reactor fuel!

.

I guess thats when the Unobtainium mines on Pandora come on stream!

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"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

I've just found out that the company who are doing these tests for Autocar is called Emissionsanalytics.

A quick search reveals:

http://emissionsanalytics.com/emissions ... sultation/

Guess we need to be careful what we wish for!