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PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 22:36 
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Re-write traffic rules to make streets cycle-friendly, says TfL
Traffic Management
Andrew Forster 12.7.13

Boris Johnson has written to transport secretary Patrick McLoughlin with a shopping list of changes to the DfT’s traffic sign rules, which the mayor says could improve road safety, particularly for cyclists.

Transport for London’s proposals include changes to the rules for cyclists turning left at signalised junctions, and a new law giving pedestrians and cyclists legal priority to cross side-road junctions.

Many of the suggestions would require changes to the DfT’s Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 document. Transport for London hopes to influence the review of TSRGD, which is currently underway, with a revised version expected to be published at the end of 2014.

A number of changes are proposed to how cycle advanced stop lines (ASLs) operate, including:
Installing low-level cycle signals at ASLs so the signal for motor traffic can then be moved back to the first stop line
Allowing part-width ASLs to encourage cyclists to keep to the “correct/nearside lane, particularly where right turns are not allowed”
Allowing ASLs to be installed at stand-alone pedestrian signalised crossings

The DfT recently authorised TfL to introduce 7.5-metre deep ASL boxes on the Transport for London Road Network (TLRN), an increase from the current maximum of five metres. “Nationwide authorisation might be granted depending on the outcome of the changes to the TLRN locations,” TfL notes in its briefing paper.

TfL also wants the Government to make it a civil offence for drivers to encroach into advanced stop line (ASL) boxes when a traffic signal is red. “The police are currently not resourced to enforce ASLs and bringing the offence on a par with yellow box junction and bus lane offences would be more acceptable to motorists,” says TfL.

It also urges ministers to pass the order necessary to decrimininalise mandatory cycle lane infringements. The power already exists, but the order to commence has not been signed off.

TfL wants the DfT to approve new signage declaring a street a ‘Cycle street’. “A cycle street is a link which is designed to restrict use by motor traffic and provide a superior level of service to cyclists,” it explains.

TfL wants pedestrians and cyclists to be given legal priority to cross side-road junctions. “This is implied by rules 8 and 170 of the Highway Code but not covered by law,” it says.

It also wants the Government to allow ‘intelligent ambers’ that would allow cyclists to turn left with caution, giving way to pedestrians crossing. No one was available at TfL this week to explain to LTT exactly how the concept would work, though a spokesman said they were not ‘flashing ambers’.

TfL also wants to introduce ‘green waves’ of linked signals at 20mph “or less” instead of 30mph. It says the use of 30mph green waves favours motor vehicles and disadvantages cyclists.

The DfT should give local authorities more freedom to decide what road signs should be illuminated, says TfL, suggesting the current TSRGD as over-prescriptive. “This is evidenced by the ever growing number of [highway] authorities who are simply not complying with TSRGD,” it says.

The DfT should also take a less prescriptive approach to what signs say. TfL points out that ‘No Entry’ signs can now have a supplementary plate saying ‘except buses’ or ‘except cycles’ but special authorisation is required to erect one saying ‘except buses and cycles’.

TfL wants the DfT to authorise the general use of low-level signals at cyclists’ eye-height (the current minimum height for traffic signals is 2.1 metres). Off-street trials of low-level signals have just begun at TRL and TfL hopes the DfT will authorise on-street trials during 2014.

Another request is for cycle logos to be permitted on the red light of a signal head (they can currently be displayed on the green and amber signals). TfL says allowing the logo to appear on red signals will give all road users greater clarity that the traffic signal is for cyclists. Trials of this arrangement have been completed at TRL and TfL hopes the DfT will authorise on-street trials in 2013/14.

Another request is for the DfT to allow speed awareness courses to be offered to motorists exceeding 20mph speed limits. TfL implies that this would lead to greater police enforcement of the limits.
This is a curios mix. Disturbing about the profiteering courses for 20mph infringements ... not surprised though... just appalled. 20mph is a dangerous game to play on road safety.
Low level red lights for cyclists may help them obey them more which would be good.
Interesting about threir decision to alter light lights as many Council aren't bothering ! They have a legal obligation !
Cyclists turning left on amber is pointless and potentially dangerous.
Flashing amber is equally pointless IMHO, or am I missing something ?
Don't see how it is going to help London street to legally help peds & cyclists cross - it will lead to additional congestion ... perhaps that is the point ! :headbash:

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 21:31 
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A lot of these proposals are a death sentence for cyclists.
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Transport for London’s proposals include changes to the rules for cyclists turning left at signalised junctions, and a new law giving pedestrians and cyclists legal priority to cross side-road junctions.

You might be able to shift the blame onto motorists by this law but the cyclist would be just as dead. The more we pander to one group of road users the more self righteous and irresponsible they will become.

There is a letter in the Times today (a paper which supports cyclists wholeheartedly) which basically says that cyclists and pedestrians should take more responsibility for their own safety. I agree.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 23:22 
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Yep I do not see how any of these proposals will do anything to help any cyclist. I cna only imagine the left hand turn is to help stop them from being squashed by a lorry ... when they decided to turn left at the same time, failing to recognise the immediate or potential danger! A few moments pause and thought ... :)

Just because they have the authority to propose or change rules doesn't mean that they ought to !

if we do not address the cause of the problem then it will never be solved. :headbash:

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 07:40 
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Of course, it may be simple self-interest. You can imagine all the "right on" employees of TfL cycling to work and then sitting down to decide how to make life easier for themselves.

Sorry, this is a stereotyping of TfL but I'm just sick to death of the sucking up to cyclists to the detriment of other road users.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:10 
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Yeah I tend to agree and of course if this gets the go-ahead in London then it will be copied to other towns that think they should follow suit.
We need to encourage collaboration of all road users not this pander to one group or another !
I get criticised for 'being in an ideal world' but in fact it is far more costly and hard to administer, than making things more simple. We must encourage people to take more responsibility for their own actions than less.
What it takes it trust and faith in the ability of 'people' to manage risk and make good judgements!
Do they really think that people cannot do this ?
The question ought to be how to help people get better, not add more and more rules and regulations.
Perhaps we are going to see this increase for some years, and then in 10-20yrs someone will finally wake up to the idea that 'it is all got out of hand', and revert it back to where we were 20 yrs ago!
Sadly this seems to be the current latest fashion, to social engineer everything. :(

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 15:21 
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malcolmw wrote:
The more we pander to one group of road users the more self righteous and irresponsible they will become.


much like your average "i pay road tax" car driver then ? :wink:


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 19:14 
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ed_m wrote:
malcolmw wrote:
The more we pander to one group of road users the more self righteous and irresponsible they will become.


much like your average "i pay road tax" car driver then ? :wink:

I actually agree that this argument is fatuous. However, car drivers are not pandered to. They are despised and looked upon as a source of revenue by councils. Councillors, of course, drive to work and park free in car parks.

Every new scheme thought up by planners is to restrict car usage (IMO for reasons of social engineering) while buses and other forms of public transport (which are basically useless outside big cities) are lauded. Want to go to the cinema in a rural location? The car or its proxy a taxi are your only options.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 13:41 
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TfL wants:
a civil offence for drivers to encroach into advanced stop line (ASL) boxes when a traffic signal is red
decrimininalise mandatory cycle lane infringements (so they'd become a civil offence?)

More cameras and more kerching by the looks of it.

It is clear that TfL have an agenda - as one of their big cheeses stated on Route Masters on BBC2 the other night. I wouldn't have a problem with their plans to use less carrot and more stick to get drivers onto improved public transport except it alway always always involves taking money. As one driver stated on the programme 'I'm paying the congestion charge and it's still congested'. Thankfully Manchester told then Gov to shove the idea - funny how many of the projects the charge was to pay for have been done anyway. At the time the fatuous minister threatened the voters that 'There's no plan B'. Wonder where he is now?

Chris

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 14:14 
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malcolmw wrote:
You might be able to shift the blame onto motorists by this law but the cyclist would be just as dead. The more we pander to one group of road users the more self righteous and irresponsible they will become.

Yes, and the more divisiveness and mutual antagonism it will cause on the roads. "We're all in this together" needs to be taken seriously as a principle of behaviour, and no class of road users should be put on a moral or legal pedestal. All road users need to take at least some share of responsibility for both their own safety and that of others.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 00:52 
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On the TfL program they showed the example of the 'cycle - roundabout' yet they ONLY had a few bikes and about 4 cars !!!
Hardly what you will get in Central London ! Plus if you have SO many bikes will the traffic ever move !! Thus impossible to use in any major town or city!
Sadly someone is totally failing to realise what happens in real life!

And yep a cyclist decided to go the 'wrong way' around their system! They could understand why he would do this ! He explained that it was 'more direct' .... the basic human route planner - go direct.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 07:21 
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I didn't see the program but are you saying that they worked out the rules for use of a complex junction with cycle priority and when trialled, the motorists obeyed the rules but a percentage of cyclists did not?

No, surely that would never happen. :)

This is a product of the preferential treatment described in this thread. A proportion of cyclists will now just ignore any regulation introduced for their safety if it "gets in their way".

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:38 
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malcolmw wrote:
This is a product of the preferential treatment described in this thread. A proportion of cyclists will now just ignore any regulation introduced for their safety if it "gets in their way".


You appear to assert that people either ride a bike or drive a car and never do both.

That's a bit ignorant isn't it?

I know people who drive who jump red lights when they cycle, where do they fit in in your little oversimplified world?

And this was a trial, why shouldn't a cyclist take the most direct route if they can?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:10 
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malcolmw wrote:
However, car drivers are not pandered to.


Are you kidding me?

malcolmw wrote:
They are despised and looked upon as a source of revenue by councils.


Nonsense.

malcolmw wrote:
Councillors, of course, drive to work and park free in car parks.


My local councillor is a keen cyclist, cycles everywhere, so your blanket statement is rather poor.

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Want to go to the cinema in a rural location? The car or its proxy a taxi are your only options.


Is this about rural locations? No, it's about cities.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 15:14 
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weepej wrote:
You appear to assert that people either ride a bike or drive a car and never do both. That's a bit ignorant isn't it?

I know people who drive who jump red lights when they cycle, where do they fit in in your little oversimplified world? And this was a trial, why shouldn't a cyclist take the most direct route if they can?

Firstly, I see no grounds for you interpreting my posts as dividing people into two groups. Cyclist are people on cycles at the moment in question. The fact that they may also have cars is irrelevant.

Secondly, your statement about the same person in a car obeying the rules but transgressing while on a bike just proves that it's the poor regulation of cycling that is the problem. It's this that needs addressing. The tiny likelihood of a cyclist being traced as they have no means of identification leads to this kind of potentially dangerous behaviour.

Thirdly, I will give you an example of another trial of traffic controls to see what you would have done. Ramp metering lights were installed on a motorway junction near me a few years back as a trial. The idea was that the lights delayed cars as they entered the slip road to see if this eased the traffic flow. Would it have been alright if I had ignored the red lights and just gone directly onto the motorway as it was just a trial? After all this would have been the quickest and most direct thing for me to do.

As for your other post, yes, I am making general points. I don't expect you to take them as literally true in all cases. This is a discussion forum not a court and I don't propose to give evidence to support everything.

In case you forget, please answer my question posed in the third paragraph.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 15:18 
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malcolmw wrote:
Would it have been alright if I had ignored the red lights and just gone directly onto the motorway as it was just a trial?


That'a apples and pears.

The trial of the roundabout was not a live situation.

And I bet in the motorway trial, at least one person during the trial period ignored the red lights and went onto the motorway anyway.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 15:22 
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malcolmw wrote:
Secondly, your statement about the same person in a car obeying the rules but transgressing while on a bike just proves that it's the poor regulation of cycling that is the problem. It's this that needs addressing. The tiny likelihood of a cyclist being traced as they have no means of identification leads to this kind of potentially dangerous behaviour.


In the grand scheme of things it's not a problem though is it, and certainly not worth spending millions of pounds on for a cycle/rider registration scheme; even if that did stop it, e.g. I see registered cars jumping red lights many time a day, speeding, taking wrong turns, turning into side roads without giving way to pedestrians already crossing. These are the things that are causing deaths on our roads and need to be concentrated on, for me cyclists jumping red lights on their bike is waaaaay down the list of things to worry about.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 17:15 
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So, you have not answered the first question. Let's try this. If my motorway slip road trial had not been "live" would it have been OK for me to plough straight in thus undermining the purpose of the experiment?

On the second point, why do you think that the behaviour of the person who is a driver is modified when they get on a bicycle?

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 17:30 
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malcolmw wrote:
So, you have not answered the first question. Let's try this. If my motorway slip road trial had not been "live" would it have been OK for me to plough straight in thus undermining the purpose of the experiment?


A non live trial would've been carefully contrived, and yes, the event of somebody going through a red light might've affected the results, resulting in a change to the scheme to prevent it, make it less tempting, or maybe even the scheme being ditched.

In the same way the guy that went the wrong way round on the bike might mean the scheme is changed to aid him, make it more difficult for him, or maybe even scrapped.

After all, why go all the way round the roundabout blocking every junction on the way when nipping across to the right avoids this? Maybe this guy was onto something!? Make it two way for cycles, sounds like a good idea to me.

malcolmw wrote:
On the second point, why do you think that the behaviour of the person who is a driver is modified when they get on a bicycle?


Good question.

I personally think when people are in a vehicle they are very much aware of the damage they can cause with a simple mistake, but when on a bike they feel more like a pedestrian. Being able to see much more could be a factor too (I find that in my car visibility is very restricted compared to when I'm on my bike).

But that's just me, anybody else with a non partisan view?

I don't jump red lights on my bike by the way so I can't comment, and for the record, I don't have a registration plate on it either.

I was at a junction once and a lady road through the red and she was on an old style dutch bike WITH a registration plate if that helps.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 17:38 
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weepej wrote:
I personally think when people are in a vehicle they are very much aware of the damage they can cause with a simple mistake, but when on a bike they feel more like a pedestrian. Being able to see much more could be a factor too (I find that in my car visibility is very restricted compared to when I'm on my bike).

Good point, hence why in general (most) motorists are so careful and (many) cyclists are so reckless.

We may even be seeing a measure of agreement here.

Do you think that, basically, cyclists are more akin to pedestrians or car drivers?

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 18:17 
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PeterE wrote:
Good point, hence why in general (most) motorists are so careful and (many) cyclists are so reckless.


Ha ha! Right, OK yes, that's how it is.

:loco:

PeterE wrote:
Do you think that, basically, cyclists are more akin to pedestrians or car drivers?


You mean somebody on a bike compared to the same person in a car, compared to the same person walking?


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