Safe Speed Forums

The campaign for genuine road safety
It is currently Tue Jun 02, 2026 15:37

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 18:33 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:19
Posts: 1795
I got a letter published in the local paper and the one reply so far is this:

Quote:
A picture of the truth
4 Jun: Sir, - As one of the campaigners for speed cameras in Wetley Rocks and as a member of Transport 2000, I cannot allow the misleading letter from Mr Richards (June 1) to go uncorrected. Firstly, the report from Liverpool University does not find that speed cameras are ineffective in reducing casualties, only that they are less effective than speed humps, but the authors also acknowledge that speed cameras can be used in places where humps are not suitable. Secondly, the evidence from Staffordshire is not that speed cameras are ineffective but that they work. Staffordshire has more speed cameras than other counties and lower accident rates. The main road in Wetley Rocks is now protected by speed cameras at both ends of the village. The speed of vehicles in between is noticeably slower than it was before. Developing technology will allow measurement of the speed of a vehicle between cameras, eliminating the tendency of irresponsible drivers to speed up as soon as they pass the camera. Speed cameras are free, paid for by fines, so they do not use up resources that can be used for other road safety measures. The Staffordshire Road Safety Partnership also provides driver education for drivers caught just over the speed limit as an alternative to fines and penalty points. It is true that the safe speed may be below the speed limit in poor conditions, but it seems to be a widely held myth that the driver is best qualified to judge the safe speed even when it is over the set limit. Maybe this explains the odd fact that the majority of speeding accidents are caused by experienced mature drivers on familiar roads.



Obviously the last line is one to go for along with Staffordshire's safety record. Oddly the SCP website says there were 71 deaths in 2003 ( http://www2.staffordshire.gov.uk/camera ... /intro.htm) and the abd's website says 90. Which one is correct? Is there the data for 2004 yet?

This is what I wrote (slight rant alert :-) )

Quote:
Cameras Don't Stop fatalities.

12:00 - 01 June 2005
Sir, - If MP David Kidney thinks speed cameras reduce deaths and serious injuries even at camera sites then he is delusional. The apparent reductions are explained by a statistical effect called regression to the mean. The University of Liverpool has just published a study showing speed camera benefits are largely down to this rather than any actual real world benefit. If you site cameras where there have been multiple fatalities the likelihood is that the number of accidents will drop in subsequent years even with no camera and no other measures. Apparent benefits also do little to take account of road engineering measures and variations in traffic levels. There are 6,000 cameras and still over 3,500 deaths per year. If only half the cameras managed to save one life each then there would be 500 deaths a year. Accident black spots only account for roughly 15 per cent of all accidents. As only around three per cent of all accidents are caused by speed in the excess of the prevailing limit (according to Avon & Somerset and Durham police statistics) you can see what a miniscule effect the cameras would have even if they did work. The fatalities due to excessive speed also include accidents involving joy riders, criminals escaping from the police and drugged/drunk drivers. So few of the drivers causing these accidents are your average driver that drifts over the limit and gets snapped. The drawbacks of cameras are far greater and they have been used as a substitute for real traffic police. Bearing in mind deaths on Staffordshire' s roads have been increasing even though the area is littered with speed cameras also suggests that they do not work. The Safety Camera Partnership should be sacked as they are doing nothing for road safety. Imagine the benefit that could be gained if all the money wasted on these stupid distractions was ploughed into driver education. It is about time the real causes of accidents and fatalities are dealt with: drunk and drugged driving, illegal driving and tired drivers. The Camera Partnerships are further muddying the issue by failing to distinguish between inappropriate speed (speed in excess of the safe speed for the conditions) and excessive speed (speed in excess of the limit). Their road safety message is now down to the simplistic "drive within the limit and you' ll be ok". The lowering of speed limits is also reducing people's belief that those that set them have a clue about what they are doing. The highway code also makes the matter worse by using braking statistics from a car of the 1960s. No wonder the youth of today drive around at the limit in the narrowest of roads and during the busiest of times. I do not expect the Camera Partnership to do a damn thing about it as any road safety measures that will actually reduce deaths don' t bring in money.



Of course transport 2000 membership does immediately write them off as a nutter but I would like to give them the benefit of the doubt with a reasoned response :roll:


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 17:50 
Offline
User

Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2005 16:12
Posts: 1040
Location: West Midlands
Wetley Rocks was never dangerous for anybody driving sensibly, but a couple of boy racer type accidents and everything has gone totally over-the-top probably due to people like this letter writer. The speed limits on the A520 either side have now been dramatically cut, and the entry from the Stoke side is ridiculous with: Red high grip patches with the limit embossed in them 5 yards before the limit signs, that are so close that they block out the flashing warning sign, which itself hides the speed camera that is set to catch drivers within 10 yards of the speed limit signs. Once through the village, the streight that was a perfectly good passing place now has a reduced limit and something like 4 cameras on it destroying a perfectly good overtaking place.

The drivers that are most likely to have been the cause of the problem (a tiny, tiny minority) will have been youngsters from Stoke desperate to get away from the scamera every 200 yards that the southern side of Stoke is swamped with.

The most badly place camera I have ever seen is further down this road in Cheddleton placed 50 yards down a quite serious slope. There is no way anybody can drive past this camera without looking at their speedo for something like a constant 10 seconds because the slope is such that the slightest variation in brake pressure will cause the car to speed up significantly.

I have to say that without any doubt at all, that the experience of driving down the A520 has been transformed over the last few years from being a pleasent drive where it was occasionally possible to enjoy the scenery, into a very stressful, licence threatening nightmare where the amount of concentration that can be spared from scamera and speedo watching has been reduced to very dangerous levels.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 17:53 
Offline
User

Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2005 16:12
Posts: 1040
Location: West Midlands
Oh, and nice letter :)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Stats needed
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:34 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:19
Posts: 1795
Ta :-)

Anyone got any summaries of road fatalities by county over the last 5 or 10 years? I am having intense trouble trying to find any of the stats on the dft's website. The national statistics one is out of date. If I were a cynic I'd say the government are trying to hide the true rise in road deaths. I can only find dodgy KSI figures that are up to date on the DFT's site and there are not separated into those that were killed and the ones that were just seriously injured. I even did a search on 'road deaths 2003 & road deaths 2004' and got no documents returned for either! The search facility is either crap or they're seriously trying to hide the figures.

Ideally I'd like Staffordshire's for 2004 and Durham's from 1994-2004 to compare. Even better would be the death rates per billion vehicle km for both counties.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 13:22 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:19
Posts: 1795
Just about found them. Annoyingly the ABD have Staffs fatalities as 90 for 2003 when the actual figure is 78 according to the DFT's statistics. What is going on there? This puts the figure at around the average for the last few years rather than way over the odds.

I could still do with data on billion vehicle KM travelled by county. Using population statistics puts durham about 5x as dangerous as staffordshire as they have half the road deaths but 10% of the population :roll:


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 14:09 
Offline
User

Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2005 16:12
Posts: 1040
Location: West Midlands
You definitely can't use population, but even vehicle/miles should be used with care: Staffs has the M6 going through it, which will affect this figure. In theory you should remove all Motorway KSI and vehicle/miles, as the motorway (except M4) is currently unaffected by Scam policy.

For some reason the necessary figures are incredably hard to find, but might it be somewhere with the national speed survey data - you know the one that says that more and more people are speeding year on year.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 12:42 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:19
Posts: 1795
Someone else has replied and what they say is laughable. They even have taken credit for quoting pratnership clap trap as their own research!

Quote:
7 Jun: Sir, - The debate on safety cameras ended a couple of years ago with the ayes in favour. Organisations such as Safe Speed and the ABD (the vocal minority), have had all of their arguments against safety cameras refuted - both by the authorities and independently. It's no surprise then, that the authorities refuse to enter into any further dialogue with them. After all, if these anti-safety camera organisations were to accept published safety camera analysis, they would go out of business overnight. Your leader column questions the placement of safety cameras, and calls to have them property audited. The simple fact of the matter is that they have been transparently audited, but there are those who still refuse to accept the findings. Shame. The Sentinel recognises that there is a reckless minority of road users - this is very true. They present a risk to all of us that is five times greater than the average motorist and over 10 times that of the advanced driver. However, this group represents only five per cent of the motoring population, so they are effectively responsible for 25 per cent of all road deaths. The safest drivers on the road are the advanced drivers, who represent only about one per cent of the motoring population. So who is responsible for the remaining 74.5 per cent of deaths on the road? The only group left is the average motorist. So, when it comes to road safety, the average motorist always has been a legitimate safety camera target. My own research has studied both sides of the debate and concluded that safety cameras prevent in the region of 100 deaths and 1,000 serious injuries per year and have saved the economy around £1.2 million per death and £400,000 per serious injury. They reduce collisions within their placed areas, leaving the motorist to continue driving badly in others, resulting in we, the motorists, continually creating the need for ever more


Is there anything I can repost beyond 6000 cameras and only 100 lives ie not even statistically significant but representing exactly 3.5% of fatalities which is coincidentally the number bandied around for fatalities caused by excessive speed (c 3%) and DFT looking into regression to the mean so obviously it is something that hasn't been considered. Deaths are up at some camera sites so therefore one cannot conclude that they have much of an effect anyway. I could do with a link to study in London and the one that was done in South Wales.

Another study put a dangerous 5% responsible for 45% of road deaths with around 15% being responsible for best part of 80%.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 19:48 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 00:15
Posts: 5232
Location: Windermere
It was ironic, but while Kevin Tea was on Radio Cumbria defending the record of the Cumbria SAFETY Camera Partnership, I was engraving part of a memorial to a young girl killed returning from a night out with friends.
Their car was struck by a drink driver, who fled the scene on foot, but was caught and restrained by a passing motorist.
She will be missed by her friends, and family.

The offending driver will be missed by.... the SAFETY cameras. Even if he had been speeding prior to the accident, the best they could do would have been to offer him a fixed penalty offer in the post a week or so later. :x

The author who claims to have done some research should be asked to show his sources of data. Maybe you can use the above somehow. :(

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.034s | 11 Queries | GZIP : Off ]