Safe Speed Forums

Discretion

I'm going to give 3 true stories involving me as a youngster regarding brakes and am after the views of the BiB regarding discretion (yes, what I am about to admit to was {and still is} strictly speaking illegal - but I'd like to know what they'd do (as in nicking or ignoring-wise and why).

1 As a motorcyclist (and about 19 years old at the time) the cable on the front brake snapped as I applied the brakes to stop at a zebra crossing. At the moment the front brake failed through the cable breaking, I locked the back wheel (through reflex, I suppose) but managed to miss the pedestrian on the crossing. The bike was properly maintained and the cable was oiled and adjusted periodically as per the handbook.

Question 1a. Considering no-one was hurt (and remember the police weren't actually called), if you (the BiB) had been called or had witnessed and stopped; would you have nicked me there and then for defective brakes? Q 1b. I rode the bike home slowly, literally no more than 20MPH on side streets off of the main thoroughfairs (about 7 miles) relying on the back brake only: If you'd seen and stopped me doing this, in light of the story, would you have nicked me?

2 Again, as a motorcyclist, "2-up" (the girlfriend), when I was around 25, I took my CX 500 down the A13 towards the 'magic roundabout' at Pitsea. On applying the brakes, the rear brake hub stay arm snapped, pulled the back brake on violently on its own momentarily locking the back whheel before the whole back brake pedal assemble was torn off the bike. (the pedal actually thumped me heavily across the back of the right leg having done a revolution as the wheel unlocked itself). I brought the bike to a halt on the front brake only by just braking marginally harder than I would have done anyway and over use of downshifting (ie high revving the engine on the over-run). The girl frind was oblivious to what had happened until she saw the bruise on the back of my calf and the wrapped around back brake arm. Questions are the same as above. The bike was properly maintained (by me - and I am not an idiot, bikers who knowingly ride defective machines as though they weren't defective don't have a long life expectancy!). Q2a Had you come across me examining the bike and limping, would you have nicked me there and then or exercised discretion? Q2b. I put the girlfriend on the train and rode the bike home some 30 miles. 40MPH ish on the A13 dual carriageway, 20MPH ish on the back-streets just as soon as I could practicably get of the main road and use them: If you'd seen me riding so slowly and had the explanation that I was riding the bike straight home very cautiously given the circumstances, would you have nicked me?

I always did all my motorcycle maintainance myself.

3 Not as dramatic: The handbrake cable snapped in the car about 5 years ago. Having investigated and made sure that no lose part of the cable would foul the wheels, likewise, I drove the car home and then onto a garage to get it fixed. Q3a & 3b are the same as above. Would you nick at the time or en-route home? I will add that I did not drive the car quite as cautiuously as the bikes at all when 'limping' home.

Whilst I expect to be told I should have been shot by an unspoken few, I wonder what the opinions are not just of the BiB but others too. I would add that in the event I had NO brakes at all, I would not move any vehicle (car or bike or anything else) - nor would I drive a car on the handbrake alone except for the shortest of distances (like off of a recovery truck and onto the drive and into the garage at 5 mph).

My own views are that I would do exactly the same again given the circumstances (as in drive very slowly and off the beaten track, 'nursing' whatever it was I was driving / riding home). Does anyone else have any view on this Or should I have been shot for doing so?

You should have been shot.

Seriously though, I don't see anything wrong with limping home damaged if you are able to adjust your driving to take account of the vehicle's condition and don't have too far to go. Never having ridden a bike I'm not able to pass comment on how you dealt with those situations, but as some round here will remember I drove home last September after a cyclist ran into the side of my car and landed on the windscreen. I had about 6 miles to drive with a lap full of glass particles and a windscreen that was a lot harder to see out of than normal. Like you, I decided that I could get back safely provided I went very slowly and carefully, though I also decided to cover my arse and stop off at the nearest cop shop on the way. I figured that if I showed the damage to the police at the station but got pulled over for the windscreen after that I could reasonably point out that the officer at the station should have told me not to drive.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Weren't the brakes on CX's (aka Plastic maggots) utterly shite straight out of the factory anyway?

Seriously though, being a motorcyclist of some 30 years now (riding since the age of 9), I see bugger all wrong in riding a bike home on the front brake alone (especially as the front brake is responsible for around 75% of the stopping power).
In fact when I think about it, I very rarely use my rear brake when out & about anyway as there is simply no need.

With regard to the rear brake "stay arm" incident, the same thing happened to a friend of mine one morning on the way back from Box Hill many years ago.
I was riding behind him, and the first I knew that something was wrong was when his numberplate simply disappeared off the face of the earth in front of me.

The "stay arm" had parted company from the swinging arm itself, and had then simply spun around (in sympathy with the brake hub) and caught the edge of the number plate causing it to shatter.
The person who appeared the most shocked at this was his girlfriend who was on the back. Only a split second earlier, she had both her hands on the rear of the bike and only took them off to wrap around my mate's waist because he had accelerated harshly and she was fearful of dropping off the back.

Lucky or what?

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What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?

I found myself in a similar situation a couple of years ago when my bike was pushed off its side stand.

The front brake lever parted company with the handlebar and left me with a 20 mile trek home on backroads at a snails pace.

Still the new lever only cost a fraction of the new fairing I needed .

Still I think I see your point, I believe that automated detection of an infringement is the wrong way to go, bring back humans .

In the penniless days of my youth I rode motorbikes and drove cars that had all sorts of defects that would technically have been illegal, yet none of them ever caused an accident. I believe that although an element of good lucky was involved, nevertheless the real risk posed was small because I took the circumstances into account and drove accordingly.

Off the top of my head I can think of several examples, such as snapped handbrake cables (and one fantastic incident with a Vauxhall Viva where the entire handbrake lever ripped out of the floor, complete with a 4" square piece of rotten floor...). Complete clutch failure due to failed master cylinder seals, and one particular incident where I had to get 30 miles home with the throttle wide open due to a broken return spring, using the ignition switch to control progress.

All of these incidents were technical illegalities, but none could reasonably have been predicted, and all were largely due to the sheer age of the vehicle rather than any specific lack of maintenance. On the contrary, these were the sort of cars you had to maintain every night if you were to stand any chance of getting to work the next day!

Ironically, each such incident probably improved my skills as a driver, partly in terms of having to think laterally as to how to cope with it, but mainly in terms of having to plan that much further ahead and really anticipate what the next hazard might be. (No clutch is a great one for that!)

I think if I'd have got nicked I'd have regarded it as very harsh but ultimately a fair cop. But in reality I think it unlikely that a reasonable copper would have nicked me, at least not in those far off days...

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

A further example that just came to mind....

One day, I was driving an 850 Mini of dubious provenance. As was typical of the breed the gearbox was badly worn and would jump out of first gear under acceleration. It also had a typically ineffectual handbrake due to the rear drums being worn so much that the handbrake mechanism lost all it's mechanical advantage by the time the linings touched the drum.

So here am I, turning right out of an uphill T junction onto a busy road. I am balancing brake and throttle with my right foot due to lack of handbrake, though the lack of a handbrake is irrelevant anyway as my left hand is necessarily fully occupied holding it in first gear. I know that it will have to stay there at least until I can grab second, so in readiness my right hand is at 7 o'clock on the steering wheel so that I can put up to a full turn of lock on with one hand, as necessary to turn out of the junction.

Thus all is prepared and as tranquil as it ever could be, driving that sort of vehicle. I am craning my neck forward over the steering wheel to look for traffic on the main road and see a gap. Off we go, still holding it in gear with left hand whilst right hand quickly whips round to apply 3/4 of a turn of lock. At which point said right hand neatly flicks the cigarette out of my mouth to land in my lap in a shower of glowing embers.

Strangely enough, I can recall no specific advice being offered by the highway code in terms of dealing with this scenario...

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

Oi you!

Leave the poor plastic maggot alone! Show me another bike of its era which would do the sort of miles it would - usually on minimal maintenance . Why else were they the bike of choice for all the despatch riders of the day??

And, JT, talking of 850 minis (mine was 8722 KB - how sad is that?? remembering its number from nearly 40 years ago!) I recall suffering a total brake failure on mine. Pressed the pedal and it went to the metal. No braking effect whatsoever. Old mum in passenger seat. She didn't realise what had happened, just thought my driving was bit iffy. Still, made it passed the bus which had suddenly stopped in front of me without hitting the truck coming the other way. Still don't know how. Did come extremely close to causing a trouser accident though! Salutory lesson learned from that - probably one of the things that's helped keep me accident free ever since.

By the way JT -
- agree entirely!

Cheers, Chris B

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Stultus est sicut stultus facit - a known fact
Stercus accidit - a truism!

JT seems to have made Safe Speed the second from top Google hit on this search:

http://www.google.com/search?q=%2B%22ae ... medendo%22

Well done JT! (Or does someone at Google give us a leg up?)

This is my favourite Safe Speed google high hit:
http://www.google.com/search?q=%2B%22ri ... unstrom%22

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

PaulF I would have done exactly the same thing. So long as you are riding in such a way that you can stop safely with the brakes you have then I see no problem with it. I MIGHT be a little wary of the torsion arm getting tangled up in the wheel though....

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

I had sorted that out by bungi-ing it to the swing arm (around and around). You can't ride / drive anything with something attached to it which will foul the wheels.

Tee hee hee!

I've just tried a google on the first part of my own sig.

And guess what? It's right up there!

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Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian

Sorry, JT, but second is nothing! Top is everything!

http://www.google.com/search?q=%2B%22I% ... %20.sig%22

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I stole this .sig

This is very good for catholic motorists. We can confess our sins anonymously to a Copper - a bit like confession! And the Copper can absolve us of our sins and ask us to do a little penance. Rather than three Hail Marys and an Our Father, the penance should be to repeatedly recite section 103 of the Highway Code, which says: You MUST NOT exceed the maximum speed limits for the road and for your vehicle!

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I stole this .sig

Hmm, let's see now....

Honda VT500
Kawasaki GT550 (or the GT750)
ANY of the Suzuki GS or GSX range

Let us also not forget that NONE of the above that I have mentioned had anywhere near the voracious appetite that the CX did for alternators either

All joking aside though, aside from under-rated front brakes (which came from the 400N Super Dream) and the unhealthy need for so many alternators, it was a fairly bullet proof bike (I know because I went through a few in my despatch years).

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What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?

Dead heat

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Why is it dot sig anyway? Is it an allusion to a dos 8.3 filename extension?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

basingwerk wrote:

Probably why we get so many pointless spats with PaulF ....

Looking to be top poster perhaps ?

"6. Vehicle maintainance, safety and security

Vehicle maintenance

Take special care that lights, brakes, steering, exhaust system, seat belts, demisters, wipers and washers are all working."

The Highway Code is written and produced to prevent such circumstances. All it takes is a read and a little comprehension and it works well.

PaulF
I think we have all done it, it's often easier to limp home that to await a break down truck for several hours. The breakdown assistance is the answer here surely! Should the Police Officer choose to issue a ticket and you eventually end up in court I would think the magistrate would take how easy and cheap it is to provide and receive breakdown cover into account, then of course there is the risk to you, your passengers and other road users to take into account.
All in all, taking the easy way out and then claim the Police Officer who issues a ticket is harsh is wrong. If you get away without causing injury, many obviously do, that's great but "Discretion" should always take into account the possible result and most of all if discretion was too loose then we would always take the easy way out and choose to do it for even more serious defects.

PS. Never, Never do your own motorcycle maintenance, you seem to have trouble with it.

Hmm...I'm sure that I would knowingly ride a bike when I KNEW the brakes were going to fail... These things happen, that's why they're called accidents, and no amount of maintenance can prevent it .
Of course, I knew that my trottle cable was going to break 25 miles from home, which is why I rode to work that day! (and no amount of riding slowly and keeping to side roads can do anything to help there)

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.