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SafeSpeed
 Post subject: NSL and motor caravans
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 09:51 
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Ok, so what are the national speed limits for van derived motor caravans?

The Highway Code is no help: http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.htm#103

Since such vehicles are not designed or constructed to carry goods, it could be argued that they are more like cars.

Since they are based on goods vehicles it could be argued that they are more like goods vehicles.

Perhaps there's some case law?

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Capri2.8i
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 10:43 
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Whilst not knowing a definative answer, I would assume that they classed as goods vehicles. My reasoning would be that they are in effect 'Van derived cars', having left the factory as goods vehicles but being converted by a bodybuilder. All the speed limits and thier definitions are very confusing in my opinion and need to be completly re-written.

In this particular case however, I would assume that how they left the factory is what counts. For example, if it was drove as a chassis cab then it would be subjected to the goods vehicles limit. I don't think anything has changed just by sticking a fancy body on it.
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SafeSpeed
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 10:47 
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Capri2.8i wrote:
Whilst not knowing a definative answer, I would assume that they classed as goods vehicles. My reasoning would be that they are in effect 'Van derived cars', having left the factory as goods vehicles but being converted by a bodybuilder. All the speed limits and thier definitions are very confusing in my opinion and need to be completly re-written.


I agree completely, but the other argument 'goods vehicle speed limits arise because of the mass of the goods in transit' is almost as persuasive.

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Gatsobait
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 14:26 
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Would the answer be in the C&U regs somewhere?

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g_attrill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 15:43 
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Motor caravans are basically treated as passenger vehicles, the full RTRA table mentions them, it is listed here:

http://www.devon-cornwall.police.uk/dcs ... edlimi.htm

The D&C site is down at the moment but Google Cache has a copy:

Link

I agree that the HC's speed limit table is inadequate, it should really be updated and made into a fold-out version so the can put more text in. Also, picture of a <7.5t goods vehicle is of an old-style lorry that isn't commonly used these days, they should use a transit style vehicle ro make it more obvious.

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mike[F]
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 16:22 
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When we researched this on getting our motorhome in 1995, it basically came down to 'the same as cars' for vehicles under a certain weight - I think the weight was something like 3500Kg.

Ours struggles to reach 55 anyway, so it's never really been a problem. (Especially considering the engine is currently lacking several vital components after the parents' most recent trip... But that's another story entirely.)

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prof beard
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 18:25 
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My copy of the Traffic Officers Handbook (14th Edition, Jane's, 2005, p261),
indicates that the standard limits for Cars, small vans, etc of 70, 70, and 60 apply unless the motor caravan weighs over 3.05 tonnes or is adapted to carry more than 8 persons, in which case it is 70,60,50, or if vehicle is longer than 12 metres 60,60,50

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Homer
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 20:03 
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So the conclusion seems to be what we have always though. But why?

And if I take all the seats out of my large MPV and load it up to it's maximum 2500kg does it become a goods vehicle? It's suspension is taken directly from a van, so what makes it a car?
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Gatsobait
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 20:10 
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An inadequately considered arbitrary regulation? :wink: Where have we come across one of those before?

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Sixy_the_red
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 08:52 
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It would be so much simpler if they just went off the MAM of the vehicle (which I thought they did until recently). This whole 'car derived van' rubbish is just confusing the issue...

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IanH
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:11 
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This is the schedule Gareth referred to in his post, thought it might be worth posting.

It’s schedule 6 part (I) of the 1984 RTRA and refers to vehicles fitted with pneumatic tyres.

Quote:
The Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 provides traffic authorities with the authority to regulate traffic within their area. Part I of Schedule 6 to the Act imposes maximum speed limits on vehicles fitted with pneumatic tyres on all wheels on various types of road.


Item 1.
A passenger vehicle, motor caravan or dual-purpose vehicle not drawing a trailer being a vehicle with an unladen weight exceeding 3.05 tonnes or adapted to carry more than 8 passengers, is limited to a maximum speed of:
    70 mph whilst being driven on a motorway,
    (60 mph if the overall length exceeds 12 metres)
    60 mph on a dual-carriageway not being a motorway, and
    50 mph on any other road.
Item 2.
An invalid carriage is limited to a maximum speed of 20 mph.

Item 3..
A passenger vehicle, motor caravan, car-derived van or dual-purpose vehicle drawing one trailer is limited to a maximum speed of:
    60 mph on a motorway or dual-carriageway, and
    50 mph on any other road.
Item 4.
A passenger vehicle, motor caravan, car-derived van or dual-purpose vehicle drawing more than one trailer is limited to a maximum speed of:
    40 mph on a motorway, and
    20 mph elsewhere.
Item 5.
A goods vehicle having a maximum laden weight not exceeding 7.5 tonnes and which is not an articulated vehicle, or drawing a trailer, or a car-derived van is limited to a maximum speed of:
    70 mph on a motorway,
    60 mph on a dual-carriageway not being a motorway, and
    50 mph on any other road.
Item 5(2)(a).
A goods vehicle which is an articulated vehicle having a maximum laden weight not exceeding 7.5 tonnes, or a motor vehicle, not being a car-derived van, which is drawing one trailer and the aggregate maximum laden weight of the motor vehicle and the trailer does not exceed 7.5 tonnes is limited to a maximum speed of:
    60 mph on a motorway or dual carriageway, and
    50 mph on any other road.
Item 5(2)(b).
An articulated vehicle having a maximum laden weight exceeding 7.5 tonnes, a motor vehicle having a maximum laden weight exceeding 7.5 tonnes and not drawing a trailer, or a motor vehicle drawing one trailer where the aggregate maximum laden weight of the motor vehicle and the trailer exceeds 7.5 tonnes is limited to a maximum speed of:
    60 mph on a motorway,
    50 mph on a dual-carriageway not being a motorway, and
    40 mph on any other road.
Item 5(2)(c).
A motor vehicle, other than a car-derived van, drawing more than one trailer is limited to a maximum speed of:
    40 mph on a motorway, and
    20 mph elsewhere.
Item 6.
A motor tractor (other than an industrial tractor), a light locomotive or a heavy locomotive:
    (a) if the provisions about springs and wings are complied with and the vehicle is not drawing a trailer, or if those provisions are complied with and the vehicle is drawing one trailer which also complies with those provisions the maximum speed limit is:
      40 mph on a motorway, and
      30 mph on any other road.
    (b) in any other circumstances the maximum speed limit is 20 mph on all roads.
Item 7
A works truck is limited to a maximum speed of 18 mph on all roads.

Item 8.
An industrial tractor is limited to a maximum speed of 18 mph.

Item 9.
An agricultural motor vehicle is limited to a maximum speed of 40 mph on all roads.

NOTES:
This Part applies only to motor vehicles, not being track-laying vehicles, every wheel of which is fitted with a pneumatic tyre and to such vehicles drawing one or more trailers, not being track-laying vehicles, every wheel of which is fitted with a pneumatic tyre.


Otherwise NSL applies.

A "Car derived van" means a goods vehicle which is constructed or adapted as a derivative of a passenger vehicle and which has a maximum laden weight not exceeding 2 tonnes.

Isn't hard to see some anomalies: A Peugeot Expert van with unladen weight 1.4 tonnes, MAM of 2.2 tonnes is 60/50mph on dual/single carriageway, whereas a motorcaravan with an unladen weight of 3.05 tonnes is NSL.

But these are the rules chaps, disobey them at your peril. :twisted:

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Sixy_the_red
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:21 
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Quote:
The Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 provides traffic authorities with the authority to regulate traffic within their area. Part I of Schedule 6 to the Act imposes maximum speed limits on vehicles fitted with pneumatic tyres on all wheels on various types of road.

...

A motor vehicle, other than a car-derived van, drawing more than one trailer is limited to a maximum speed of:
    40 mph on a motorway, and
    20 mph elsewhere.
...



Just off topic for a second - that has interesting connotations for the 'Denby Extra' double artic...

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Homer
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 20:22 
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Sixy_the_red wrote:
It would be so much simpler if they just went off the MAM of the vehicle (which I thought they did until recently).


I think this would be even more confusing for the man in the street.

Many estate cars are well over 2000kg MAM (and I don't just mean large MPVs).

The simple, logical system would be to have one speed limit for all vehicles.
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botach
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 20:42 
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Homer wrote:

The simple, logical system would be to have one speed limit for all vehicles.


AH but then counties like Warks would lose out as their scams target HGV on NSL single carriageway DOING ABOVE 40, can't have that - they might go bankrupt :twisted: .
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Sixy_the_red
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 08:13 
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botach wrote:
Homer wrote:

The simple, logical system would be to have one speed limit for all vehicles.


AH but then counties like Warks would lose out as their scams target HGV on NSL single carriageway DOING ABOVE 40, can't have that - they might go bankrupt :twisted: .


And Oxfordshire who have fixed scameras which detect the size / weight of the vehicle and will flash a lorry doing over 40...

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Ziltro
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 13:31 
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Sixy_the_red wrote:
...fixed scameras which detect the size / weight of the vehicle and will flash a lorry doing over 40...


Length ;)

The camera proves that it's doing over 40 but it doesn't mean they're breaking the speed limit. The operators have to check the registration to see what class of vehicle it is. (I say like I know what I'm talking about...)

(So if you have a long vehicle which is allowed to do more than 40 on that road you can run the film down a bit :lol:)

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Sixy_the_red
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 13:38 
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Ziltro wrote:
Length ;)

The camera proves that it's doing over 40 but it doesn't mean they're breaking the speed limit.


Well I stand corrected! :P
All I know is that it flashes lorries doing over 40.

Having said that though, I knew a lorry driver who got a NIP when she was clocked at 3mph (proved from her tachograph trace). She was driving a curtain-sider, and the curtains flapping set off the scamera! :lol:

Homer. It would make sense to me to make the cut-off 3500kg since this is the weight limit on the new Cat. B licence.

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Ziltro
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 14:01 
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Sixy_the_red wrote:
Having said that though, I knew a lorry driver who got a NIP when she was clocked at 3mph (proved from her tachograph trace). She was driving a curtain-sider, and the curtains flapping set off the scamera! :lol:


That is a very good point, one well timed gust of wind and those curtains will affect the speed reading as the ripple down the side will look like movement.

Does this not mean that all lorries with curtains down the side are likely to have incorrect speed readings if the curtains were flapping at the time? (which they probably are most of the time)
Even a slight ripple could add speed to the reading.

It's a good job they have the secondary check to make sure such incorrect readings don't get processed. :roll:

Does she have the photos?

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Sixy_the_red
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 15:54 
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I doubt she has the photos still - I think it was a fair while ago. I've heard all sorts of stories about things like that though, like one guy who was NIPed for doing something like 600mph... :lol:

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Gatsobait
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 16:25 
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There's been a 406mph Peugeot (coincedentally it was a Peugeot 406 - :o ), but probably not going to be many more like that. Pity, because it makes it clear even to those who've given the issue no thought whatsoever that the system is a long way from ideal if a NIP can be sent out claiming that sort of speed had been recorded.

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