Safe Speed Forums

Friday 7th Oct, between about 2 and 3PM, I think near Bramham.

Blue Fiesta(?) with front end smashed in, just in line with the Gatso. Thankfully the driver seemed to be OK as he was talking to the BiB and no ambulance was in attendance.

My theory is that he saw the camera too late, panic-braked and hit the central reservation barrier.

Traffic down to 1 lane and almost stationary.

Hurrah for "safety" cameras!

much as I abhor cameras and am saddened that they are still present despite precipitating an increase in deaths, It is difficult for me to comprehend this particular incident as camera-related from what is stated here.

Unless it was combined with faulty breaks, a dodgy and intermittent grip of road surface or a left hand bend on which he locked up and ploughed straight on - or unless he tried to get over to the other carriageway to avoid a flash - I can't see this as anything other than coincidence.

You might be right though!

I suspect careless driving was the cause of the accident - the camera may well have provided the catalyst.

Of course with road safety being left to robotic "enforcement" careless drivers are going to breed unchecked except in a few instances.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

My point is that the driver wouldn't have had to apply the brakes at all if the camera was not present.

The only reason this driver was placed in a position where he couldn't control his vehicle (I fully agree with and drive to COAST and also am aware of the capabilities of my vehicle; I do not disagree that this particular driver was ignorant of the road ahead and the behaviour of his car under heavy braking; I further agree that he was careless) was because there was a Gatso camera on a straight piece of road which can only have been placed there for revenue purposes.

I notice that the numerous Gatso and Truvelo cameras I encounter weekly on my treks up and down the A1 do nothing to prevent me being tailgated, cut up at the myriad roundabouts (the Black Cat in particular is a hoot at the moment).

And as for the appalling driving that I see the HGVs indulging in, almost without exception...

Well, it all takes place well below the speed limit, so it's safe, right?

I suppose you will apply the same theory of blameworthiness to me I if I sit on a stretch of road in a fully liveried police vehicle, and along comes Mr Numpty at warp factor one sees Police car slams on looses control and the same occurrs. i think you have to apply common sense and say if you are travelling with your eyes open and at a reasonable speed then this sudden urge to test your brakes to capacity will cease, is this not the case for their pi*s poor driving, and just another reason for shifting the blame. I see this nearly every day when I am just sat monitoring traffic flow or doing a bit of paperwork. My motto dont do anything wrong and you wont have to bother what you see at the side of the road.
Stephen

All true enough.

However, you, when you're at the side of the road, are infinitely more useful than a camera; you can detect and deal with dangerous driving and any of the other problems you're equipped to cope with.

A camera simply sits there, snapping away, without discretion or consideration.

That is the difference.

i agree with stephen

in order to have a gatso there there has to be a KSI history, so from the facts disclosed here, mr driver approaching the gatso (unaware) fails to see the signage, reflective yellow colouring, brakes looses control may the ABS system kicks in (our accident investigaton team have a theory that ABS contibute to a slide effect into the kerb, if this is at speed then the vehicle has the potential to flip over the kerb onto whatever roadside furniture is there )

ok you could say black ice

in my view this accident would not have happened if the gatso was not there, the driver would not have panicked braked because he was speeding and lost control, and therefore this post would not have been started

TBH, No

IME people will slow on when seeing a police car, but they do not tend to over react as I have often seen with cameras. - I think the issue is that you are human and tend to react against the worst, the camera is indiscriminate and targets all.

As a Police officer you know who the worst on our roads are, and you also know that these are not perhaps the same people who are actually prosecuted via the camera.

I have perfectly true and accurate example which occurred on the 16th July 2003 on the m4 in South Wales (my brothers birthday- thats how I remember the date)

Traffic moving east was in good order, outside lane was averaging 80-90, middle 70-80 and inside 60-70, the talivan was not at J35 as is usual so after slowing down , everybody speeded up again. This time they had moved the van so it sat around j34 - the panic braking (previously unused bridge) caused HGV's onto the hard shoulder, people pulled onto the central reservation in their cars and there was huge amounts of burning rubber. How a major accident was avoided I don't know.

At j32 (about 7-10 miles away) there was a traffic car on it's platform by the side of the motorway - no panic braking, traffic at same pace as before just lifted off slightly.

The second form of enforcement was much safer IMO - and I wrote the CC to say as much, also worth noting is that since that day a talivan has not been on any of the bridges on the South Wales M4 during rush hour.

Cheers

Paul

Stephen, another point is that a liveried police car is often going to be easier to spot from a distance than a camera. Where the camera is in plain sight and has the high viz orange paint job, probably not a lot of difference. But where it's been placed behind other street furniture, or vegetation has been allowed to grow and obscure it, it's possible for drivers to be taken by surprise. Also, you differ from talivans in that it's hard to imagine a police car being mistaken as anything else. Either way, I expect a lot more type reactions from cameras and talivans than from parked up police cars. Not saying it never happens, and not denying that some drivers still aren't going to notice you if the car was twice the size and lit up like a Christmas tree, but generally I'd expect most drivers to see police cars from a fair way away.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

I have seen cars brake for Recovery vehicles with hi-vis stripes.
The difference is most motorists expect some discretion from a BiB regarding their driving. With a GATSO, they know if they get flashed, they get a ticket - not necessarily true, but it colours their reactions none the less.

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

No. There is a highly significant difference between you and a camera. It is that a camera only takes an instant speed, if someone scrubs off enough speed they will get away with it. However, you will have been watching the road and no amount of panic braking will mean that you 'forget' what speed they were doing. People aren't stupid(allegedly), they will realise you will have seen them doing 'warp factor 1' and so probably won't attempt to immediately get below the limit. More likely they will slow down gradually and hope you accpet they have heeded a warning, or take their chances when you speak to them.

In a more general point about this case, given a choice between panic braking or carrying on and risking points or even losing their licence and livelyhood, the vast majority of people WILL panic brake. I'm not saying this is the correct response, and is clearly very dangerous, but it has and always will happen. It's one of the reasons why cameras are such a bad idea. Unfortunately people don't sail past them making no attempt to slow down whilst thinking "Dam and blast I've been photographed by one of those wonderful safety cameras", which is what I assume whoever dreamt up these things thought was going to happen.

hmm well it was the word theory that stood out to me...

could have been anything.

Think I posted this a bit back - but when driving some 3/4 weeks or so ago in the roadworks on M60 I noted a rear ender at tempo Gatso. Not rocket science to work out the likely cause Having said this - would have to say that they have kept this motorway flowing and it looks like being quite an OK improvement when finished. Pity they have not sorted J13/12 though

Sure a liveried car is much easier to spot and generally - they seem to understand and take no action or a mild "look see" if you gently slow to a more sedate pace as I guess discretion tells them you are alert

Any van on any bridge though.... these are seen as talivan first and AA vehicle second...

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would that be TAILGATING? I really do wish people would stop using speed cameras as an excuse for bad driving practices.

There are bad drivers out there. Traffic policy has to take that into consideration.
I don't see anybody using speed cameras as an excuse for bad driving, rather they can be seen as more of a contributary factor to that bad driving. eg. Sudden braking at camera sites.

replace the camera with a child, an animal or any other object. Clearly it's the tailgaters that need to be targeted. Looks like we may have found the perfect way to catch them and the non-observant all in one go.

How do we catch the tailgaters?

they're the ones embedded in the back of the vehicle that's done a panic stop.

Rearward facing gas powered harpoons fitted as standard to all vehicles. The gas pressure varies with speed so that the faster you are going, the further the harpoon travels.

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

we have a monitoring system (video & radar) currently fitted as prototype on a coach running about the country. all a bit spy in the cab, but allows logging of tailgating type events.

not a cost effective solution for series production in cars i guess, but may be of interest to hauliers and the like (if they can avoid their drivers striking over it )

you could do it with a similar roadside setup i suppose, but you may not be able to see the plate and ou dont know if its an ongoing tailgating or someones who's just nipped in and is in the process of dropping back...