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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 19:59 
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A DRIVER who killed an elderly woman who stepped out in front of him was sentenced to wear an electronic tag . . . at the age of 85.
Widower Patrick McCarthy was fitted with the device — normally used on burglars and yobs — to make sure he stuck to a 9pm to 6am home curfew.

But the ex-trucker has had the tag removed after a judge branded it “humiliating” and overturned the sentence by a magistrates’ court.

Judge Arthur Noble said: “Mr McCarthy is a man of 85 with an impeccable driving record for 50 years and a man of good character. The curfew order is wrong and should not have been imposed.”

Mr McCarthy said of his ordeal after the hearing at Bolton Crown Court: “It was unpleasant for anyone, particularly someone of my age.

“My wife died two weeks after the accident and I have had to face this all on my own.”

Mr McCarthy was found guilty of careless driving by a district judge at Bury magistrates on September 16. He was given a two-month tagging order, disqualified from driving for 28 days and ordered to resit his test.

The Crown Court heard the pensioner, of Bury, Gtr Manchester was doing under the 30mph limit when he hit Anne Loughrey, 85, who stepped into the road suddenly.




Ann 85 year old tagged for careless driving.......the world has truly gone mad... :(

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 22:24 
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Had the pedestrian survived, would she have been charged with careless walking? :oops:
It takes two to tango, and from the brief description of the accident, it seems she contributed somewhat to her own misfortune. :cry:

Maybe Mad Moggie has a bit more detail.

That said, the magistrates seem to have been even more amiss in sentencing as they did - thank heavens for common sense.
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Judge Arthur Noble said: “Mr McCarthy is a man of 85 with an impeccable driving record for 50 years and a man of good character. The curfew order is wrong and should not have been imposed.”

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 22:49 
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85, who stepped into the road suddenly.

does an 85 year old do anything 'suddenly'?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 00:53 
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http://archive.thisislancashire.co.uk/2 ... 65823.html


Quote:
Grandmother died crossing busy road
From the Lancashire Evening Telegraph, first published Saturday 2nd Oct 2004.

AN 85-year-old grandmother died in hospital from serious injuries after she had tried to cross a main road in Prestwich, an inquest heard.

Mrs Annie Loughrey died on January 8 this year following a collision with a Ford Fiesta in Bury Old Road, near its junction with Orange Hill Road.

Bury Coroner's Court heard on Tuesday how the elderly widow was standing in the middle of the road waiting to cross when the car, driven by 84-year-old Patrick McCarthy, struck her.

Mr Dudley Mears, of Pine Street, Bury, was travelling to work that morning and witnessed the incident.

He said: "It was rush hour so the traffic was bumper to bumper and I saw a little lady, with her head down, crossing slowly from the opposite side towards a bus stop. She didn't seem to be observing the traffic.

"The car came around the bend and just kept coming until it hit her. I don't think he saw her until it was too late."

Mrs Loughrey was treated at the scene by a passing GP, Surinder Jolly, before being taken to North Manchester General Hospital where she died later that same day.

The hearing was told Mrs Loughrey suffered a fractured leg and skull which resulted in a brain haemorrhage, causing her death.

Sergeant Stuart Comerford, from the accident investigation unit, told the court Mrs Loughrey would have been visible to drivers from 80 metres. If the car was travelling at the speed limit of 30mph, the driver would have had less than six seconds to react.

Mr McCarthy, who lives in Whitefield, told police in an interview read out in court that he never drove at more than 30mph and had been driving slowly that day. He said Mrs Loughrey suddenly ran out into the road and fell, but his car never hit her.

After hearing the evidence, Coroner Simon Nelson decided to adjourn the inquest following the absence of two key witnesses.

Mrs Loughrey, who lived at Sealand House, Bury Old Road, was described by her only daughter, Mrs Maureen Whitehead, as an "energetic and lively individual" who enjoyed her independence and regularly travelled to her home on the Metrolink as well as taking trips to London by herself to visit her cousin.

Before adjourning the inquest, Mr Nelson said: "Mrs Loughrey appears to have been a very independent lady with many fine attributes. I would hope that her family will be able to move on and remember her and those attributes as she would have wished to have been remembered."

The inquest will resume at a date yet to be fixed.

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From the Lancashire Evening Telegraph
http://www.thisislancashire.co.uk
© Newsquest Media Group 2004



I am not surprised the judge overturned that appalling magistrates decision based on the above story from Bury Times Archives.

I would say from reading the bare bones above that the old guy's reaction was slow and perhaps reflects the dangers of reactions slowing as one gets older - and certainly the lady appears to have not been looking out for traffic. Perhaps she "froze" when she got to the middle of the road :cry:

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:22 
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The driver had just under 6 seconds to react.

Just because he was an experienced driver, doesn't mean he should still be driving at 84, if his driving has been impaired to such an extent. Of course, I'm sure that there have been times in all of our driving when we've been distracted and our concentration and reaction times have been below what they should have been. Nevertheless, a younger person taking 6 seconds to react would be asked questions as to why. It sounds to me like both parties were at fault here.

However, instead of addressing issues like how do we ensure the over 70's are still of an adequate standard to drive, how do we ensure it's safe for elderly pedestrians to cross the road, etc. it seems to be far easier to say "Oh, there's been a KSI, let's make it a 20 mph zone and install a speed camera".


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 16:57 
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I'm coming up to 65 and I sincerely believe that I should be required to re-validate my driving ability and my medical fitness to drive. This won't happen as it would be a vote loser to require any form of re-testing and would be termed 'ageist' by the 'grey-power' lobby.
What I can't come to terms with is why the magistrates felt this elderly gent was a suitable case for 'tagging'. Surely tagging is designed to keep scumchavs off the streets during night-time so that they can't commit further offences and as a punishment for doing so in the past. How is a man in his 80's a night-time threat to his community? What happens if you refuse to have a tag fitted. Is physical force used or is the refusee just put in the nick. Now, what publicity that would be if either of those sanctions were used on the elderly man in question.
What sort of society do we now have where we punish old-age pensioners with 'spiteful' sentences for minor offences. For goodness sake - the deceased lady was in the middle of the road in the first place. The old guy just made the mistake of not seeing her soon enough. It could happen to any one of us.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 17:15 
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Cooperman wrote:
for minor offences.

so killing someone is now a minor offence. Or is it only if you're 85?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 17:40 
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johnsher wrote:
Cooperman wrote:
for minor offences.

so killing someone is now a minor offence. Or is it only if you're 85?


By reading the two articles posted (I have nothing else to go on) it would seem that the lady in question contributed most to her demise and as such I can't see why the driver should be charged with anything more than he was.

I also think the punishment was completely inappropriate - a medical assessment and retest maybe, but to treat him like a common thief is not on.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 18:19 
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gopher wrote:
By reading the two articles posted (I have nothing else to go on) it would seem that the lady in question contributed most to her demise and as such I can't see why the driver should be charged with anything more than he was.


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"The car came around the bend and just kept coming until it hit her. I don't think he saw her until it was too late."

really? Sounds to me like a competent driver would have easily avoided her, regardless of her negligence, especially given this:
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he never drove at more than 30mph and had been driving slowly that day


If it's going to be open season on idiotic pedestrians there certainly won't be too many left around London.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 18:33 
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Well the judical system found him guilty of careless driving, but on the basis of a news article you have decided he was guilty of more. fine.

I do not think tagging an old man for careless driving is an appropriate punishment.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 19:58 
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gopher wrote:
I do not think tagging an old man for careless driving is an appropriate punishment.

I never said it was BUT look at it this way, for an 85 y.o. a 9pm-6am curfew, if that's the only punishment he got, is the same as NO punishment at all. Perhaps that was what the magistrate was thinking?
I have also not decided he was guilty of more as I'm obviously not in possession of all the facts but I was suggesting, based purely on the article, that it sounds like more than careless driving.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 20:11 
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johnsher wrote:
I have also not decided he was guilty of more as I'm obviously not in possession of all the facts but I was suggesting, based purely on the article, that it sounds like more than careless driving.

But in terms of the law, an isolated error of judgment that is not part of a pattern of dangerous or reckless behaviour is, or should be, classed as careless driving.

The government have, of course, consulted on the creation of an offence of "Causing Death by Careless Driving" which arguably would lead to banging people up for making isolated errors of judgment - something that would have zero deterrent effect.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 20:19 
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I may be in the minority here, but I do not believe that a custodial sentence, or any sentence involving loss of liberty in any way, shape or form, is ever justiifiable punishment for any unintentional act , committed with no malice of forethought - regardless of how severe the consequences of that act may have been.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 20:50 
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Pete317 wrote:
I may be in the minority here,
Cheers
Peter

No I tend to agree. Part of the reason we have custodial sentances is to act as a detterant, but you can't deter people from commiting an unintentional act.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 20:54 
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Pete317 wrote:
I may be in the minority here, but I do not believe that a custodial sentence, or any sentence involving loss of liberty in any way, shape or form, is ever justiifiable punishment for any unintentional act , committed with no malice of forethought - regardless of how severe the consequences of that act may have been.

In terms of the law you also need to take account of recklessness, i.e. behaving in a manner that is clearly dangerous, even though there is no actual intention to cause harm to others, and negligence, i.e. failing to observe safety procedures, where again there is no intention to cause harm.

Both are to my mind different in kind from one-off errors of judgment. I certainly agree in this case that a custodial sentence would not have been justified, and feel we are far too keen to imprison people for motoring offences. However culpability does not depend solely on intention.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 21:28 
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Cooperman wrote:
The old guy just made the mistake of not seeing her soon enough. It could happen to any one of us.

Sorry, but no, it certainly couldn't "happen to any one of us". If he really did have six seconds to react, that is a staggeringly long time to be inattentive. Imagine that when you drive along, you only have your eyes open for 1 second, then close them for 6, then open them for 1 second again, then close them for 6 again etc. How long will you last without having an accident?

In the absence of any external mechanism to do it, people should be monitoring their own ability to drive. I know of old people who have voluntarily given up driving, my grandfather did it when he decided he didn't consider himself sufficiently safe any more, and he made that decision when he was a heck of a lot more able to drive than many old people on our roads.

However, I don't see the relevance of the tagging sentence to his crime, the disqualification and order to resit his test would seem sufficient.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 21:30 
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johnsher wrote:
I never said it was BUT look at it this way, for an 85 y.o. a 9pm-6am curfew, if that's the only punishment he got, is the same as NO punishment at all. Perhaps that was what the magistrate was thinking?


But unless we know the true facts we can not judge. my MiL was threatened with court for knocking an old man over(not fatal), she was under the speed limit, going around a bend, she saw the old man at the side of the road, lifted off and watched him. He seemed to see her, stop, and then walked into her passenger door. (he was deaf, partially sighted, no cane or dog)

Needless to say CPS dropped it (quite a few witnesses), but if he had acted just 2 secs earlier it seems you would have had her strung up.

Whilst I agree that every death should be avoided and appropriate punishment given I think you have seen the "death" and decided that the driver is responsible.

The judicial process appears to have disagreed with you, and that is something we can not argue here because we do not know the facts, although I would add that if he had been convicted of causing death by dangerous driving and received the same punishment I am not sure what my reaction would be.

Cheers

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 21:33 
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PeterE wrote:
In terms of the law you also need to take account of recklessness, i.e. behaving in a manner that is clearly dangerous, even though there is no actual intention to cause harm to others, and negligence, i.e. failing to observe safety procedures, where again there is no intention to cause harm.


That may be construed as being malice of forethought, ie a wanton disregard for the safety and well-being of others.
Even negligence is a bit of a grey area as, if your negligence causes harm to another party, you're hardly likely to repeat your negligence.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 22:38 
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Pete317 wrote:
PeterE wrote:
In terms of the law you also need to take account of recklessness, i.e. behaving in a manner that is clearly dangerous, even though there is no actual intention to cause harm to others, and negligence, i.e. failing to observe safety procedures, where again there is no intention to cause harm.


That may be construed as being malice of forethought, ie a wanton disregard for the safety and well-being of others.
Even negligence is a bit of a grey area as, if your negligence causes harm to another party, you're hardly likely to repeat your negligence.

Cheers
Peter


The term is "malice aforethought" - i.e. a pre-conceived malicious intent. It's hard to see where that comes into driving offences.

"Negligent" implies a failure to do something which one knew (or should have known) should be done whilst "reckless" implies a lack of concern about the consequences of one's actions. I don't think negligence comes into motoring offences because they are mostly strict liability (e.g. if driving with a bald tyre, the offence is complete regardless of whether or not the driver is aware of it).

As applied to driving offences, I believe "careless" implies a culpable misjudgement or lapse of concentration whereas "reckless" (as stated above) implies a lack of concern about the consequences of one's actions.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 23:07 
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regardless of whether the driver was negligent as it's not that easy to tell from such news clippings, stop me if I'm wrong but is jaywalking not an offence in this country?

Perhaps we should have a campaign of adverts to remind adults and children alike of the purpose of designated road crossings and the procedures when there isn't one, but particularly the former. the number of jaywalkers i encouter playing in the traffic every day, often mere feet from crossings where good drivers expect and anticipate pedestrian actions, is just another idicator that darwin may not have been spot on.

hold on, i've just realised I'm suggesting that car drivers arent the sole cause and blame of all accidents- how preposterous!

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