Safe Speed Forums

Can we have too much health and safety? Can it be counter productive? Do we need alittle danger in our lives to become inocculated so we know what danger really is and how to deal with it when we encounter it?

I'm not saying we should adopt a fatalist, shit happen attitude, but for me the safety card is getting over used. Or is it better to wrap ourselves in cotton wool and then hurl ourselves out of planes for an addrenalin fix?

Well we still insist on that most hazardous of occupations - crossing the roads with all the speeding motorists about ( or so the partnerships would have us believe) , so much so that on a regular basis the partnerships report groups of residents ( up to a hundred sources reveal) campaigning for speed survellance on residental streets, and a ban on speeding invalid carriages.

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

we cannot have enough Health and Safety but we do have far too many rules and not enough emphasis on risk assessment and personal responsibility.

Sorry Civil Engineer but in my opinion there is to much health and safety. I know we need it but it’s all gone over the top. I’ve attended I don’t know how many health and safety courses at work I nearly fall asleep listening to the same old thing.

Risk assessments/method statements are far to complicated, for the ordinary worker it starts to have the opposite effect, it all becomes dangerous within it’s self. (Where I work anyway) from what I’ve seen of our health and safety crew they’re frightened of their own shadows and it’s all what if. You can try and reduce risk, but you will never take it away all together. We now have people who are not technically qualified for the task telling qualified engineers how to do their jobs. And the amount of money invested in health and safety is putting small companies out of business. The amount of paperwork produced is rediculous, sign for this sign for that. It’s all about bosses covering their backsides.

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Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

so you'd agree that we need send firemen on a course on how to use a chair?

It's important we don't get Health and Safety and the Nanny State mixed up. Health and Safety at work is essential, and employers have a duty to set up safe systems at work to protect it's workforce. Where H&S can get mixed up with nanny stateism is on things like where you see "Caution: Hot Water" above a hot tap and my new favorite is a sign I saw on the back of a truck, and it wasn't a joke "Caution: Don't lock anybody inside"

This all arises because companies are scared of being sued. I have no sympathy for a company that knowingly let's their staff engage in unsafe activities without either proper training or formal warning notices. However, I have every sympathy for those that get sued because someone scolded themsevles on a hot tap.

The solution is simple though, there should be a defence of "common sense", which when disputed should be decided by the courts(if indeed they have any common sense). A company should be able to legitimately claim that warning notices were not needed as the "danger" was clear and obvious and it the injury came down to a lack of personal responsibility.

Incidentally, I'm sure we've all heard the story of that guy in America who sued a motor-home manufacturer after he crashed because the manual didn't tell him that he still needed to steer on cruise control. Did he win?

Funny I noticed this in the Mail on Sunday.



Sorry, but this thread could have been better placed in another area.

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Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

I guess we'll soon be seeing streetlights designed to have a head that can be lowered to the inspection plate below "dumb waiter" style. Patentable?

you're not reading my words

we NEED MORE HEALTH AND SAFETY not more rules and regs, not more paper, not more nannying.

We need to make people risk aware we need to make people take personal responsibility for themselves and other we do not need a H&E industry that thrives on producing method statements that nobody reads , or maddening dictats about using chairs.

we must assess risks in fact we all do otherwise we'd be dead by the time we got to lunchtime.

Now - i have a favourite HSE conundrum.

The regulations for working "at heights" quote the safe height as " any height where an injury could occur if a fall occurs" - to my beliefs.And some method of fall prevention is needed.

Now - someone is running cables -date /telecomms / power in the space above a suspended ceiling. The ceiling is 7'6" above floor height and is held by wires to a 25 ft high structure internal roof-


Now can some bright spark tell me how to provide fall prevention equipment.
For those not in the know - a suspended ceiling falls if sneezed on, and the solid structures are usually too high to reach without safety equipment.

Hairyben has probably asked this many times , like me

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

Nah.

http://www.snopes.com/autos/techno/cruise.asp

Kirkby Lonsdale is on my doorstep, and featured in our local paper this week.
The contractors are Construction firm, AMEY who build bridges, roads etc. yet wont allow somebody up a ladder? The answer apparently is to use a lampost which hinges so that contractors can bend it down to change the bulb.
South Lakeland District Council Official Phil Turner said "we use Amey because they are aproved to work on a public highway and also have specialist knowledge of street lamps. Ladders can be used quite safely but Amey have obviously decided that streetlight maintenance is an unsafe operation. They are specialists so I respect that decision."

Well I am a specialist in paying council taxes, and I do not respect HIS decision! In the same local paper, it was revealed that shoddy accounting procedures had led to a £500,000 cash shortfall at SLDC!!

Is there a LAW which can allow tax payers ensure these clowns never achieve office, or do we have to rely on voting them out when the time arises?

How are window cleaners going to cope with no ladders? What about those firemen once they get out of their chairs in a highly expensive well trained manouvre?

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

The problem comes with where do you draw the line?

Was there enough H&S on that ferry from Saudi to Egypt?

Should somebody be able to sue a manufacturer because they don't put a sign on a hot tap saying 'hot water'?

Isn't it all about litigation and insurance?

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Shooting is good for you and too good for some people.

Interesting one on the lamposts Ernest - our lot use a hydralic lift , vehicle mounted. Takes me back a lot of years to living in the north east - it was decreed that ladders on buildings were unsafe unless tied --council spent a fortune fitting eyes to council houses

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

H&S on the ferry does not seem to have been the issue - it seems the captain and crew simply ignored everything for some unknown reason.
That said, a simple glance at the vessel would have me asking "Is there enough of it UNDER the water to balance what you can see above?
Consider this: This was the sister ship to the Herald of Free Enterprise - go easy with that ship surely!!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

One news report i saw commented on the fact that the ferry could have turned back to port , and that the water used to fight the fire caused the instability - another report mentions an electrical storm -another story comments on history of problems with this vessel and others of its type .

Now when i buy a used car , one of the questions in my mind is " did the previous owner sell to get a newer car , or were problems looming" - This could be applied to this vessel.

Now with regards to "TOO MUCH HEALTH AND SAFETY" - training and safety awareness - IMHO -never.Rules /regulations - if badly phrased and poorly stated ( so as to be ambigious) --certainly - rules /regs NEED to be unambiguous and clearly stated - as should the explanation of them .Highlight the reasons and the rules /regs become clear.

Think why we look right, then left ,then right before crossing the road - and then , as a habit from work , i check all round me in a sweep every 5 seconds, whilst crossing.

No - we can have too many rules , but never too much respect for guarding our personal safety, at work, at home and on the roads ,as pedestrian or driver/rider.

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

Possibly a strange concept for a safety professional, I'm inclined to agree that there could well be too much H&S or at least too much H&S being inappropriately applied !!

Life is not risk free and the HSE admit that it is not trying to make a sterile risk free society. As an organism we need the highs and lows of adrenaline, hence why in this sterile world we have thrill seekers such as base jumpers, extreme sports etc.


Under the Health & Safety at Work etc Act 1974 there are three levels of duty:

Mandatory denoted by Must or Shall, absolute duty must be complied with, usually reserved for legislation and also used in guidance for extremely high risk industries (Chemicals, explosives, refinery nuclear-though they have their own branch of the HSE).

So Far As Practicable - you should do all you can in the light of current knowledge and invention, take robotic production lines, they used to be protected by pressure mats, initially good but they got muck in them, wore out quickly and after a year or so become a hazard themselves, light curtain came in - more reliable, easier to maintain so under the SFAP clause companies were required to upgrade to LC's.

So Far As Reasonably Practicable - is essentially the most common level of duty in most workplaces, it balances the cost, inconvenience, time, trouble & practicality of safety measures Vs the actual improvement in safety, it is the duty that laid the ground rules for risk assessment (RA) under the Management of Health & Safety at Work Regulations.


However, Insurers take a different line and many so called 'safety' decisions are not based on safety or safety legislation but on a claim avoidance basis.

Local authorities often pay the poorest money, get the least qualified & experienced safety advisors so again work on the 'if we ban it we can't be sued' basis.


Political interference rears it's head, when drafting legislation the HSE have taken a robust approach and have been accused of 'gold plating' legislation BUT H&S law is one of the least amended pieces of law - they have stood the test of time. Especially since Labour came in there has been more pressure on the HSC to 'go that extra distance' end result, gold plating of legislation that has gone too far. Coupled with reductions in funding, resources and inspectors actually going out and helping enforce in a sensible & practical manner (sound familier????).

And of course lets not forget Nanny Blair who knows best !! And his doing his best to interfere in all and sundry.


There are also a lot of bodies who have a vested interest in H&S I am a member of two bodies, IIRSM (an offshoot from the British Safety Council) who take a very responsible attitude to educating the public and another, IOSH who now have chartered status.
They are now pushing the DWP Minister to legislate that companies should employ chartered H&S professional, this is despite the fact that only a third of their members are chartered. (Incidentally I am not chartered but very competent in my given fields), also if IOSH heard me talking like this I would be an ex-member !!


Misunderstanding what the law requires either intentionally or through ignorance (mostly ignorance), I have a designer who is a structural engineer who has produced a risk assessment that addresses the structural elements and then carried on with everything else - when asked why he couldn't explain - he was working on a never mind the quality feel the width approach.

Another misunderstanding is the number of times that I’m told “You can’t do that because of ‘elf ‘n’ safety” – Well yes you can as long as you take sensible precautions.

Employers often use risk assessments to justify financial decisions or the decision to ban something (we can’t give an honest reason so we’ll ban it under H&S).

And off course good old arse covering, if we produce a 20 page RA then we can shift the blame an incorrect assumption as most prosecution under the Management Regs. are for not having a suitable and sufficient RA NOT the absence of one.

Also lets not forget the great public who cry ‘something must be done’ (take speed cameras in villages as an example) and will not accept that sometimes there is nothing that can make a process 100% safe whilst we have human intervention, we can reduce it, put systems in place, but if humans can make it, humans can break it.

As for a ‘common sense’ approach or law, from the accidents I’ve investigated there seems to be little sense and it’s not that common !!


As for the ferry it is the sister ship of the Herald of Free Enterprise, with the same instability problem, the crew used seawater to fight the fire, they did not inform the shore/coastguard of a problem, until too late.


Botach, LUL use bandstands for cabling, they work, are light to assemble and move about and they come in all sorts of shapes and sizes.


As for Work at Height Regs. Ladders are not banned but like all measures they are subject to a risk assessment I’ve investigated accidents with ladders where a tower scaffold would be safer, quicker, cheaper and more practical to use.


As you can se this is a subject that I’m quite passionate about as doing t right, doing it safely doesn’t have to hard or beauracratic or expensive but some people go out of their way to fuck it up.

End of rant….

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Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk

i AGREE - there is an essence of a safety at work assessment - and this is a very simple version---

First - from a position safe - how do you get to your work position, with all due regard to safety, have you considered all risks ,visible/possible - have you inspected the site for other possibilities?
Second - you have got to site safe - what problems do you envisage on site that will make it difficult to work safely - don't forget that anyone of your team might need extra time to move to a safe position.Your equipment might bring in extra dangers and time needed to be safe.
Doing the job - what problems can occur to make a safe job unsafe?
Right - job done - lets get back
Third - how do we get back from a safe position through unsafe conditions to a secure safe position.What problems do we envisage --what steps do we put in place to overcome / get round / ensure group safety.What do we do if we encounter problems .
Fourth -- back on safe ground - we need to look at our safe system abd evaluate how well it performed .--we need a debrief and a solid look at how well our safe system perfrmed against the ultimate 100% safe system.

And that is a simple analysis of a safe system of work -

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

Botach your SSW rings a few bells !!!!!

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Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk

Too bloody true! H&S seems to have totally lost its sense of proportion - and common sense. We're in danger of submerging genuinely important health and safety concerns under a mess of gold-plated, irrelevant, time-consuming, expensive and utterly non-productive demands from our "masters" at the Town Hall. As I see it, many of these idiots are judge, jury and executioner of their own interpretations.

In my job I visit quite a few, very disparate, companies and a regular subject for moaning is the illogical actions of the local H&S inspectorate - coupled with draconian threats and "enforcement" notices for the most trivial "misdemeanours" yet at the same time completely failing to examine things that are genuinely dangerous. An example - one of my customers was threatened with a "rectify in 28 days or we shut you down" notice because they'd failed to post notices warning of commercial vehicles reversing, yet the inspector who became so incensed with their laxity neglected to even give a cursory glance at the safety systems on any of the 72" wide 10" jaw power guillotines in the place. The gaffer's opinion was that if you miss a reversing 44 tonner complete with audible warnings you're unlikely to see an 18" square notice, yet one of those guillotines would remove your arms as neatly and a hell of a lot quicker than a surgeon.

Health and Safety legislation and inspection is absolutely necessary - for Health and Safety - not to ensure that there are manuals written to ensure that staff don't hurt themselves by taking a pack of A4 paper off a shelf and many other similar insanities. It's small wonder really that manufacturing industry in the UK is in terminal decline and businesses are rapidly outsourcing work to China.

(Also rant over)

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"Politicians are the same the world over... We build bridges where there aren't any rivers." - Nikita Kruschev