Safe Speed Forums

Not too long ago, Mad Moggie posted a piece regarding these memorials being "distracting".
Now the BBC Cumbria website is running a poll to ask what we think of them, and the sentiment behind them.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/cumbria/features/2006/memorials/index.shtml
Is this the start of a move to ban them?
Some States in the US already ban them, and in France they are to be kept small and simple in some areas.

Last Wednesday, a young driver was killednear Windermere, and on Friday, a large party of school friends, teachers and others, placed a large number of floral tributes.
Friends have told me that drivers are slowing down to view the enormous display - but tonight as I drove past, I see that there are even CANDLES in small lanterns flickering in the darkness!

My own feeling is that whatever this lad had done to make such an impression upon those who knew him, was done while he was alive.
There should be a memory, and a feeling in the hearts of those he touched, and not a celebration at the spot where it all ended.
It IS becoming a distraction, and a target for the PC brigade, who will be telling us it offends somebody next!

What do you feel about this? Should they be banned, or limited in some manner?

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

There is a dual carriageway where pedestrians dice with death by crossing it (this includes stepping through some fairly long grass and over an Armco barrier) on my route to work. Sadly this practice/stretch of road has claimed lives.

One solitary bunch of flowers marks where one person lost life, propped upright against the Armco barrier. This gets renewed regularly. I personally find it a poignent reminder and take extra special care there. One has to cast eyes far wider than one normally would for a dual carriageway on the approach to make sure there is going to be no pedestrian risk.

Of course, in the old days, before we were absolutely "signed out" this would have been a case of a specially crafted "watch out for pedestrians crossing the carriageway" type sign.

There is a pedestrian bridge, but it is several tens of yards to get to it from the cut-through, and the stairway up and down is long and windy, adding too much time to the foot soldiers' journeys to be used by many on that particular estate.

I have seen plenty of close shaves there over the year, all (thankfully) from a distance and all without actual contact.

There is one local to my work. Last winter two teenagers on drink and drugs crashed in to the path of a car on thier small motorbike/scooter.
flowers were left there by all school friends of the younger lad. They were left all year, the wrappers blowing around littering the area. the anniversary has come and this year about another 10 bunches of flowers were left.

It wasn't a dangerous spot. The accident was 100% down to a couple of teenagers out late at night on drink and drugs. No one cared enough to tidy up the site after a few weeks, no one collected the cards or the teddy bear tied to a tree.

This site is more of a distraction rather than a warning.

I think there are cases where the family want to remember and prevent it happening again at that spot. It came out from hampshire that they had no policy. Every one is too scared to deal with it.

I would sugest that the council write to the family offering to tidy up after 1 month and forward the cards to an address if one is offered. Even to assist the family to sort through if that is required.

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

[controversial mode on]

What gets up my nose is that, usually, the most extreme memorials are those to people who got killed by their own stupidity. The case highlighted by Anton is a classic "they were lovely lads" scenario wheras it would seem they were not.

I have little time for these shrines.

[controversial mode off]

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

I'm not sure if it applies all over Brittany or France, but in the area near where my parents live, the memorials are limited to a single plaque, cut out and printed in the SHAPE of a bunch of flowers, with the message written on.
It has to be secured, and identified with the contact details of the person placing it.
I have seen them tied to posts, or trees, and planted in the verge. As a result they always look tidy, not unkept.

Malcolmw, I dont see what you say as being controversial - I feel many will agree with you. As to the memorial serving as a warning to take care - it's a bit hit and miss, and could place the person renewing it in danger. Far better to have the council do a better job with a sign.
There is a "Beware, pedestrians crossing" sign where a footpath crosses the A590. A memorial would be far less effective!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

It is the most likely cause of death for young to middle aged people. We don't think of this when we are in our cars, but we live in fear of the comparative rarity of a Soham.

Nowadays we just don't see death, not like our grandparents did. Roadside memorials do confront us with death in one way.

I guess people either want them removed because they remind the driving public that they are putting themselves into a risk state as mentioned in my first paragraph, or because they think they are a distraction.

If the former one has to ask the motives of the people who want to remove them, and if the latter, then I reckon someone has got their priorities wrong - have you ever noticed how many things there out there that have the potential to distract?

I don't feel strongly about it, but I'd quite like to see them removed for a different reason.

They carry the implication that a crash was somehow tied to the road at that location. Although that's possible, it's now only about 15% likely. (i.e. 85% of crashes take place away from traditional black spots). But tying a crash to a location tends to reinforce the idea that the road is to blame while reducing crashes depends on road users taking responsibility for their actions.

So in summary I think that roadside memorials tend to shift perceieved responsibilities in the wrong direction - away from individual road users rather than towards.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I accept thier prescence and we should learn from thier mistakes. But the message is "here is a dangerous spot". Not drink and drug driving kills, Or where is your 15 year old lad at 11.30 pm. Is he out drunk on a bike?

The council need to make a policy with compassion and reason. If we are to have a permanant memorial it should have respect, purpose and reason. Scattered litter in the bushes and trees does not do this.

Why should I be made to feel guilty for thier mis-adventure?

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

Anton

Your use of the word "respect" in your last post set me off on a train of thought over the incident you mentioned. Just speculation but do you think all the original fuss over the two boys killed, the subsequent "state" funeral and the first anniversary vigil indicates that they were related to a local "community leader" who deserved a lot of respect? Not spontaneous grief at all?

This may seem a bit of a strange opinion but this whole case was very strange (at least as reported in the Echo).

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

I'm not sure about that. I've seen accident graphs in presentations for new road schemes, and they generally seem to cluster strongly around junctions and some specific bends.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Not sure about the case being spoken about here but there are a couple of these around in Essex mostly on sections of dual carraigeway, oddly enough on these sections there is nearly always a pedestrian crossing or bridge within 50-100m.

Though there is one at the end of my road, there is a school nearby and a couple of kids were larking about and one ended up in the road, two years later once amonth fresh flowers go up, can understand the loss but the one near me has seen three rear end shunts with drivers slowing down to look at 'shrine' and the car behind not seeing them slow down. IMO should be banned asap.

Likewise the ones on dual carraigeway I've seen in Essex, to refresh the flowers means that someone else puts themselves at risk to do it.

Can't see the sense.

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Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk

"there is a school nearby and a couple of kids were larking about and one ended up in the road"

Goodness. Kids playing near the road by a school. Whatever next!

Sorry if that last post was angry, but it was heartfelt.

I decided not to edit it because actually it had feeling. If it upsets, then so be it.

I got this from a local authority traffic engineer. He was telling me about research data that I've never seen. He told me that in the 1960s at least 50% of all crashes took place at sites that would conventionally be described as black spots. These sorts of black spots always had unusual clusters of crashes because something in the environment misled lots of drivers to make 'standard' mistakes.

So we've put a lot of effort into treating conventional black spots. Crashes declined, but as they did so they also became much more loosely distributed around the road network. We have even tended to widen the definition of a blackspot to include wider areas (sometimes they say 'black links') where there are groups of crashes. According to the report, conventional 'black spot' crashes are down from 50%+ in the 1960s to less than 15% of crashes now.

That said you can't have junction crashes without a junction or bend accidents without a bend. And where there's more traffic there will normally be more crashes...

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

B cyclist: "Goodness. Kids playing near the road by a school. Whatever next!"

"Sorry if that last post was angry, but it was heartfelt.

I decided not to edit it because actually it had feeling. If it upsets, then so be it."

It doesn't upset or offend me at all, I happen to think it's one of those 'true accidents', what offends me is that the 'shrine' being put up like the ones on dual carraigeway barriers acts as a factor in more accidents.

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Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk

That comment is both amazingly obvious and amazingly enlightening.

So if we have a junction - on a bend - on a busy road, it is quite possible that there will be a cluster of accidents there, but that doesn't necessarily make it an accident blackspot.

That said, it would be equally true to say that (eg) if you removed all the junctions you'd remove all the junction accidents, yes?

So whether you believe in "accident blackspots" or not, it still seems clear that accident "clusters" can probably be treated by re-engineering the road at such locations....

Meanwhile, back on topic, I'm generally against "shrines" and I'm specifically against them since I heard various tales about them typically being perpetuated by "do-gooders" with little or nothing to do with the person involved, just a belief that they are doing the community some sort of service, or perhaps salving their own "assumed grief" in a sort of Post-Diana-esque fashion. The net effect, I suspect, is a needless reminder of their loss to the family involved.

Anyway, far more people die in all sorts of other everyday situations, yet we don't feel the need to place flowers at the foot of people's staircases etc.

On a related topic there was a thought-provoking letter in our local paper a couple of months ago, by the mother of someone who had been (innocently) killed in a tragic accident at High Newton on the A590 (a notorious section of road awaiting a long overdue bypass). She was complaining about the signs that have been erected drawing attention to the number of casualties on that section of road, saying that she has to pass that way every day and it's like a constant kick in the face to be reminded of the needless and wasteful loss of her son.

A bit like the CSCP "hearse" stunt in Kendal last year...

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

Umm, yes. It may be politically incorrect around here, where many people seem to believe in draconian testing of drivers, but this is the way to reduce casualties, which has been neglected for 15+ years.

Let us praise J.J Leeming

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

I don't believe that road engineering has been 'neglected'. I'm aware of loads of engineering treatments applied to areas of elevated risk. Sometimes modern treatments are all wrong, of course. Too many signs. Too much white paint. Needlessly reduced speed limits.

I think there is ample evidence that we've been underspending on roads, but 'black spot' treatments are still receiving attention.

You're definitely right to suggest that engineering improvements are vital and central to long term improvements, but I accept that they are ongoing. We don't need to push push push for more engineering because we're getting more engineering.

But surely the critical modern problem is that we're making drivers worse with bad policy and bad messages.

I also happen to believe that driver quality is the great untapped road safety opportunity, and that UK driver quality is the main reason that our roads are safer.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

JT, the latest accident on the A591 at Bannerigg is of course missing from the bright new shiny signs they put up, just beyond Plumgarths, before Ratherheath.
It too will be seen by the parents, who will know that toll has increased by one - and it is THEIR son.

AND the tone of the sign implies the ROAD is dangerous, when in fact it is a combination of poor planning, and bad driving.
There was another closure on Bannerigg YESTERDAY, with 4 mile tail backs in each direction. I dont know if anyone was hurt, but it's alarming that we discussed this only a few days before the tragic accident, which was bound to happen sooenr or later, yet nothing is done to improve the design until somebody dies!!

It should say on the sign "This is a memorial to those who were injured or died due to the incomptance of the Highways Authority, and bad driving."

Now would that drive the message home?

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

I agree with the first part of this, but I'm not sure about the second part. I'm more inclined towards a small simple item. given the preponderance (sp?) i would suggest a small bouquet of artificial (long-lasting) securely fixed to a post/tree