Safe Speed Forums

Well, I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned already. (Or if it has, it must be hiding in a different section somewhere - are you sure there aren't too many!? )

Is it right that the speed limit on the motorway is 70mph?

They are our safest roads, it's true. But autobahns in Germany are completely unrestricted, and not significantly more dangerous than our motorways (At least, I don't think so - I have never seen any figures for this).

The derestricted speed limit was originally 80mph, but was then lowered to 50mph during a fuel shortage, and then put back up to only 70mph.

The braking distances in the highway code are based on a Ford Anglia with all round drum brakes. A lot of modern cars can stop in a lot shorter distance.

A crash at 100mph (speed of impact, not speed of beginning to brake) is only slightly more likely to be fatal than one at 70mph - both are pretty certain to be deadly.

Personally, I'd like to see either the German system - putting responsibility on the driver to choose a safe speed for his vehicle and the road (although this relies on sensible drivers, something we aren't overburdened with) - or else a much higher speed limit - say 100mph, but with anyone driving even 1mph over this limit being penalised. Way do I say that? Because at the moment, the law is a joke. "Here are the speed limits that you must drive on the roads. What, you were 'only' doing 8mph more than the limit? You cheeky scamp, run along and don't do it again."

(Example referring to someone doing 78mph in a 70 zone).

Having said that, I'm glad these comfort margins do exist, as my car is a lot more settled at 75mph than 70mph - something to do with resonance and the wheels being unbalanced.

So, there we have it. Raise the moroway limit? Lower it? Remove it? Raise it in places, lower it in others? What do you say?

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-mike[F]
Caught in the rush of the crowd, lost in a wall of sound..

Speed limits serve three genuine purposes:

1) They warn experienced drivers about expected hazard density
2) They guide inexperienced drivers away from exceeding safe thresholds by wild margins
3) They provide an easy tool for the Police to use against those who might be using speed dangerously.

I've not been able to identify any other safety related purpose.

I don't have much of a problem with the 70mph motorway limit, so long as it is enforced with intellient discretion - something that seems to be in short supply these days. There are certainly times and places where much faster than 70mph wouldn't be very clever, and the number 2 purpose is sometimes well served by the 70mph limit.

I'd certainly like to move in the direction of derestricted motorways, but I do worry about inexperienced drivers. I think the route would have to be:

First we establish a formal advanced driving licence, then we raise the limit for advanced licence holders - possibly raising the limit in stages for advanced licence holders only.

I'm just (say 55/45) in favour of an immediate increase to 80mph. I think this would help to restore confidence in the speed limit system. I doubt that it would make a measureable difference to vehicle speeds.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Hi Mike!

You haved or two misconceptions of German A/bahn!

They are not completely derestricted! Lander run by the muesli munching Greens apply a 130kph (81mph) limit. (Pfalz etc). There are variable speed limits in Bayern.

Also the authorities recommend 130kph in any case, and it is not unknown for insurance companies to refuse a pay-out if you have accident in excess of the recommended speed.

That being said, motorway driving is included on German L-Test, and the lessons include Motorway and Night driving - elements covered by our optional Pass Plus!

On aggregate, I think German driver training is more intensive than ours, and we could only introduce unlimited speed limits on some of our motorways if we improve the standard of training, testing and teaching!

Also tailgating is illegal and they will use CCTV footage against you in a prosecution - or so I understand from WildCat's relatives who live there!

As for accidents on these A/bahns - I am sure I have seen a link on this on our host's super-excellent site!

However, I do not think we can have one speed limit for advanced drivers and another for numpties - as I foresee total chaos here! The driving test should be brought to existing IAM standard for ALL! And we should have a "brush up your skills" driving course every 5 years - say. This helps remove "bad habits", maintains interest and enthusiasm for safe driving, and force a more frequent perusal of the HC! I would include eye-tests and geneeral medical in this as well - as there seems to be an increase of heart attacks behind the wheel! (M60 had another tragedy only last week!) But in views of what happened to WildCat some time back - admit to persoanl preference there!

But - as far as current speed limit goes - see no immediate problem with increased speed limit to 80mph. The majority could drive very safely at this speed! They appear to do so anyway despite the 70mph limit!

Yeah, OK, perhaps I am being a little short-sighted by saying completely derestricted or a much higher limit. But an 80mph limit would certainly decriminalise a large number of otherwise innocent drivers.

As for the autobahn, I have to say that I had no idea it was limited like that, having heard tales of Brits going over there to give their cars a legal high-speed run.

As for your idea of compulsory re-testing every 5 years... We already have a near-critical driving examiner shortage in many parts of the country. Here, the waiting list for a test is something like 16 weeks. Unless you could find a way to attract a lot more examiners, this scheme would simply not work. It's a similar story for training everyone to IAM standards. There's also the issue of cost - it would either make driving a much more expensive thing to do, or require a lot of money from the government.

The idea does have its benefits, but I can't really see a practical way of implementing it - particularly considering that there would be 20 million+ existing motorists who would need re-testing to meet the IAM standards if it were introduced.

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-mike[F]
Caught in the rush of the crowd, lost in a wall of sound..

Ahh, good, something to argue about!

I don't think we can possibly bring all drivers - or even all new drivers to IAM standard - nor do I see a need to do this. Our road safety performance is good already - we certainly should improve it, but that means regular incremental improvements not wholesale changes. In fact wholesale changes may bring adverse consequences as we're seeing.

I don't see why we shouldn't have more differential speed limits on motorways (and on trunk routs in time too). After all we already have differential speed limits based on vehicle class, and I don't see to many problems arising from that. There are two reasons that we must have differential speed limits depending on driver skill:

1) It sends the message that driver skill has a safety and economic value. This will leak into the overall safety culture and thereby increase the perceived value of driver skill.

2) It provides a strong motivation for a large group of regular road users - especially the high mileage business drivers that make up up to 1/3rd of the traffic - that they will benefit personally from taking training. In other words, it's a bloody good carrot.

If we can cause 1/3rd of the drivers in the traffic (but only 10% or so of the whole population of drivers) to take further training then "accident interactions" will reduce considerably. This is because in a typical two vehicle accident EITHER driver could have avoided the crash.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Indeed:

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/international3.html

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

80mph? I don't remember that! Originally, I believe derestricted meant exactly that on the motorways, and lasted only a short time before the "experimental" 70mph was applied - it's one hell of a long experiment, if you ask me.

For my part, I put it to you all that ALL speed limits should be ADVISORY ONLY. That's right, remove all the red-bordered circles and replace with a new sign. Away with Gatsos, Truvelo and SPECS, disarm traffic police of their radars, force them to rely on observation of behaviour in relation to other road users.

That said, excessive speed could and should be an aggravating factor when traffic offences are being considered, especially where personal injury occurs.

Any thoughts, everyone?

My 80mph claim was based on something I was told, rather than any factual evidence.. They seemed trustworthy enough!

It's an interesting point about making all speed limits advisory, but there are simply too many idiots on the roads for that to actually work. Police would become hated for pulling people who they thought were driving dangerously, much as they were hated for pulling speeders. The only way this would work is, again, if new drivers had to have a lot more compulsory training.

Perhaps a few one-on-one chats with victims of RTAs caused by dangerous driving would help too?

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-mike[F]
Caught in the rush of the crowd, lost in a wall of sound..

Hi all!

CJB - I agree with Mike - there are too many numpties with unrealistic idea of their skills on the road for "advisory speed limits". Even on Germany's desrestricted A-Bahn - they would still prosecute you for OTT speeding! You have got to retain common sense at all times!

They had a case recently - which is making them consider implementing a 130kph blanket across all A/Bahn: "Turbo Rolf", the Merc test driver took a Merc out and opened her up to 180mph. Unfortunately, he caused a 21 year old young Mum (travelling at a very respectable 110mph) to panic as he stormed up behind her. She lost control and very sadly died as result! Turbo Rolf is serving 2 years for this!

Mike - as for chats with victims of RTAs - "Think!" and "Brake" trot these out on their adverts and campaigns to ram home their dogma. The BBC programme on Captain Gatso included RTA victims to show us "how bad" the "good Captain" is!

Believe either Surrey or Suffolk police are showing RTA nasties to first offenders and just-overs to prove "how dangerous speeding is" and put them off! Rheinland Pfalz has just introduced an interactive DVD whereby they show actual footage of the "offender's" car speeding down the A-Bahn - and have programmed it to show what could happen if he crashed at that speed!

As for the re-test idea - this is more a "brush up your skills" idea rather than a test. We go on courses for our jobs with no problem. Therefore, a short update/evaluation - with just an ordinary ADI could be all that is needed to prevent bad habits, keep HC in mind and just keep people generally up to speed with their driving abilities. Costs of this could be offset by reduced insurance premium on production of completed course as in theory "you could be less of a risk" Just ideas to thrash around with!

German test - though - does include compulsory motorway drive - which should form part of UK test! Probationers are not allowed to purchase high powered cars until through probation either! Another factor which could be introduced here with no significant extra cost!

More later - got to pick up the "kittens"!

High-powered cars aren't in themselves dangerous; nor are they more dangerous when in the hands of inexperienced drivers. They're more dangerous when in the hands of irresponsible drivers, who can have any amount of experience.

It's just an unfortunate statistic that newer (younger) drivers are more likely to be irresponsible. But we aren't all as bad as each other...

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-mike[F]
Caught in the rush of the crowd, lost in a wall of sound..

I don't really agree with this - there are two common ways that inexperienced drivers get into serious trouble in high powered cars with really being irresponsible.

Firstly, due to "underdeveloped" hazard perception, inexperienced drivers in high powered vehicles risk rushing into danger - it's not that they are irresponsible - it's just that they don't recognise the risk so soon.

Secondly, high powered cars have a much stronger interaction between power and grip - inappropriate use of the throttle can send you spinning. I well recall watching a Sierra Cosworth spinning out of control at Marble Arch (the left hand bend at the North end of Park Lane North). He wasn't going fast - he just gave it too many beans. Novice drivers tend not to anticipate the risk.

It's the second part - the interactions between power, grip and steering - that worry me most about inexperienced drivers in high powered cars.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

How do you police this? Both myself and Wildcat could see ourselves being pulled for licence check to ensure we had the licence to ton it! You would have to ensure a strict lane culture as well - which again means training for numpties!

Of course, we could make IAM compulsory qualification for professional drivers (reps) WildCat's firm are looking at this after spate of NIPPED reps (in Lancs and Brunstromia Dictatorship), plus a couple of minor prangs by one of them!. This would be a step forward and maybe lead to implementation of your idea?

Surely only if they're driving faster than is safe for the conditions, which would be irresponsible. I can get up to 90mph in my Corsa, which is most definitely not a safe speed in a large number of situations, but at times (motorway with everyone moving at 80-90, etc) is OK. Why would it be more dangerous to be doing 90mph in a BMW (probably with more safety features and better brakes)? Okay, you have the potential to get up to ridiculous speeds, but if you're responsible you won't do this, regardless of experience. Or am I missing something here?



Why should a novice have more difficulty adapting to a powerful car than someone who has driven low-powered cars for two years? In fact (feel free to shoot me down in flames here, doesn't reflect real life and so on), I'd argue that as an avid fan of racing computer games, I'm well aware of the effect of sudden moves on the controls in a fast car. I don't see how two years driving a 1.4 prepares you any better for the different driving technique required by a sudden increase in power than two months in same.

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-mike[F]
Caught in the rush of the crowd, lost in a wall of sound..

Hi Mike, you're raising excellent points as usual.

With the first, we derive benefit from powerful cars by using the power. This means higher speeds sooner - and if it didn't, we might as well be driving a low power car. With higher speeds, drivers have to look further ahead, and novices are weak at spotting the more distant hazards. I'm not worried about the top speed achieved on a motorway - more about speeds for hazards. Bends are a good example - Inexperienced driver crash at bends quite often by adjusting speed too late and ending up going too fast.

With the second, a couple of years experience in modest metal might well include driving on some low grip surfaces and experiencing the interactions between power, grip and steering. You are completely correct that some experienced drivers may also have trouble adapting to a high powered car. But at least it's less. Many inexperienced drivers have absolutely no idea that they can cause a skid with the throttle.

I would like to see eveyone having some skid pan experience. There's no substitute, and it's MEGA fun.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Hi Mike!

You come across as a "natural" driver (seen your post on another thread here. and it is refreshing and encouraging to see so much maturity in a young driver!)

Well, your comment on the racing computer games reminds me of debate WildCat recently got into on the other channel. One of the BiBs on there posted a thread over the DVLA Hazard Perception game, and it seems that a lot of us middle aged farties (including the BiB score surprisingly badly on them.

Wildcat ventured comment that the "game" is structured to certain mouse clicks: the film clips had multiple hazards and the experienced driver would notice and adjust long before they developed into hazard. Hence old farties and petrolheads such as ourselves would click early and get accused of "cheating!" whereas the inexperienced learner clicks at right point and scores Unfortunately, the game was only structured to accept the "perception" click when hazard had become actual hazard (the guy behind the wheel in these clips was a right numpty!), and so the experienced driver would score badly in comparison to some well versed computer gamester. (Well that's the excuse all the Phers came up with when I read through the thread! ) One of the youngsters in the family is a recent Pass Plus-ster, and the game was originally purchased for him. We all had a go - and were all pressing imaginary brake pedals and cringing at the driving on the film - poor use of wiper blades - and we fell over when the scam pinged him! ("What If" Game available from any Software outlet! - Try it - it's a larf!).

However, computer games are just that - games whereas when you drive a car, you feel the car, its steering, acceleration, power, braking. Every car has different "feel": we have X-Type and S-Type Jags - both very fast cars - and both very different animals to drive! There is a first edition Stag and a last edition Stag within this family of complete car fanatics. Same cars - but each have completely different "feel" when you drive them!

I mentioned on the"speed and concentration" thread that you have to concentrate much harder at a high speed. You have to - because you have to take in any hazards in the distance much, much more quickly and react in good time. Novices are still developing this technique - and it comes with practice. I had an Austin 1100 when I was 17, then progressed to my big sister's 1300 after 12 months, but was allowed to drive my parents' 1800 and 2500 cc cars as well! (Yup - was one spoiled ****!) But this proved beneficial, and also proved to me that I could not just drive a turbo charged car immediately after my L-test - as that kind of power needs some "getting used to!"

You need to learn the feel of a variety of cars before you progress to a really high-powered car! Luckily - you are up in Cumbria - so you can get lots of practice on bendy roads and a variety of surfaces, crowns, cambers and gradients in your current modest (low car taxed) car! (Think of the children!!)

Paul said that many inexperienced drivers have no idea they can cause a skid with the throttle. Lots of weak but "experienced" drivers would be the same. He is right - training should include a skid pan experience for all. Apart from that, as our host says - it is wicked fun!

I'd have some sort of advanced driver plate - like an "L" plate only better. It would probably slot in at the end of the number plate, and it would probably only be on the back of the car. It's a bit of a pain to have to do this, and I wouldn't try and justify it on the basis of allowing advanced drivers to go at higher speeds.

But the "badge" would raise the social value of advanced driver training, and it would demonstrate clearly to the average driver that they still had things to learn. We live in a badge conscious world - so advanced driver badging would do us all a power of good. It's a shame because I'm a passionate badge hater.

I suppose that there would be a penalty for displaying a badge if you were not entitled, and a penalty for using your priviledge without displaying the badge. Neither penalty would carry licence points.

I'm working on a major "Road Safety Proposals" document - I have been since January. I hope to finish it in a few weeks. This stuff about advanced licences and so on is in there.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Interesting idea, but there are some practical obstacles. Firstly the speed cameras won't be able to tell the difference between a car driven by an ordinary license holder and an advanced driver, so our camera obsessed politicians will never go for it . But lets assume Westminster wakes up and smells the coffee, and we have a sensible speed camera policy one day. Obviously the hypothetical A plate (or whatever) would have to be removable, otherwise I could borrow Mrs Gatsobait's car in order to drive faster as she's an advanced driver and I'm not. Sure, there'd be severe penalties for this sort of behaviour but let's be realistic here, it's more about the chance of getting caught. People at the moment share the points from FPNs when only one of them is actually getting zapped by gatsos. As long as they send the cheque off they seem to have an excellent chance of getting away with the false declaration. I'd expect the same to apply with misusing an A plate, so it would have to be removable. On the other hand it can't be so easy to remove that the damn thing falls off on the M4 for some uninsured tax-dodging speed freak to nick. Equally it needs to be large enough for the police to see easily at a reasonable distance on a motorway. Then it has to be something that can't be easily copied or people will just end up faking them in Photoshop.

Wouldn't it be simpler just to raise the motorway speed limit, and at the same time introduce compulsory motorway training and/or testing before you get a full license? Here's my idea. When you pass your test you can rip up your L plate as normal. But the P plate becomes mandatory and as long as you've got it you can't use a motorway unsupervised. As soon as you take a motorway driving course/test then you can get rid of the P plate as well. If you never want to use motorways then you don't have to take the course, but you don't get to rip up the P plate either. Breaking the rules means going back to a provisional license and L plates again.

I'm more inclined towards a training course than a test. Testing means some people could be tested in perfect visibility, light traffic and on a dry surface, and others get the evening rush hour in the snow. A training course consisting of 5 or 6 seperate lessons could be designed to give tuition in a wider range of motorway conditions - a couple of hours in light traffic, couple more in moderate to heavy traffic, an hour at dusk, an hour in the dark etc. Ditching the P plate would then become more about completing the course (and learning from it) than just passing another test.

Okay, I must admit to some bias here. Encouraged by my instructor I bought a couple of hours motorway tuition after I passed my test. Smug git, aren't I? Oh alright, she was giving discounts for motorway lessons, but it was worth every penny. However, I still worry about how many, or more likely how few, new drivers do the same.

Completely agree with better training idea.

I passed my test in Germany 11 years ago - motorway driving as well as night driving was a compulsory part of driving lessons. Sets you up well for driving in the future! Some people in here will never go on a dual carriageway/motorway due to fear!

Hello, new member here!

I heard on my car radio this morning that an 80mph motorway speed limit is now conservative party policy.

I know who I will be voting for

Having read (skimmed) through most of this read i'll post a couple of ideas and then go do some more work..

1)Introduce more demanding training and testing for new drivers, plus anyone who has to re-take for any reason. New drivers would not be allowed to drive on motorways.

2) Introduce (at the same time) the testing and training for drivers to be allowed motorway driving after a specified amout of post test experience.

3) introduce (again at a similar time, if possible) a number plate per driver, not for each car. At least one european cuntry has this, although i don't know how that system copes with shared cars.

The above is admittedly generalistic in nature, and assumes resources that won't happen soon, particularly for the plates. I can't see many downsides, though.