Safe Speed Forums

Anyway, if there's a dangerous junction, let's re-engineer it properly.

I think what I'm trying to suggest is that just as speed cameras are not a panacea for dangerous driving, it is similarly unreasonable to claim that all speed cameras are a bad thing.

Isn't it more relevant (and more likely to win support) to campaign for a more measured use of cameras in appropriate locations, while continuing to rage against the use of cash-generating devices hidden behind signs etc?

uite like the comfort of knowing that Gaz the Chav in his maxxed-out Corsa has slowed down for the junction.

Pre-presentation questionnaire

Completed pre-presentation questionnaires returned by 714 school students from 14 schools and 8 attendees from 2 YOTs in the London area showed the nature of the clientele for this piloting of the scheme.

Of the school students, aged predominantly 16 and 17, 63% did not hold a licence, 33% held a provisional car licence (including 2% holding provisional car and motorbike licences), 3.4% a full car licence (with a small number of these holding full car and motorbike licences), 2.4% holding a provisional motorbike licence and 0.4% a full motorbike licence. A greater proportion of the females held no licence (F: 72%: M 59%).

Asked about their experiences of being a passenger in a car driven by a young driver:

• 72% had been driven at 40 mph or more in a 30 mph limit by a young driver
• 64% don’t always belt up in the back
• 37% had been driven at 60 mph or more on a bendy country road by a young driver
• 37% had been driven by a young driver who overtook dangerously
• 36% don’t always belt up when a front seat passenger
• 36% had been driven by an unlicensed driver
• 30% had been driven by a young driver racing with another young driver
• 22% had been pressured to take a lift with a young driver they thought might drive dangerously
• 16% had been driven by a drunk young driver
• 15% had been a passenger with a young driver on drugs.

Respondents were also asked about their experiences of riding pillion on a motorbike driven by a young rider committing various illegalities. Unfortunately they were not asked how often they had ever ridden pillion on a motorbike so it was not possible to disentangle those who had never ridden pillion at all and those who have never been illegally conveyed.

96 of the 714 school students answered the question about what bike they ride. 63% reported riding a moped, 23% a motorbike of 125cc or less. 55% had also earlier indicated that they held no driving licence. Of the 96 respondents 10% held a provisional motorbike licence and 1% a full motorbike licence. Of those who had ridden a motorbike:

• 62% admitted to riding when they didn’t hold a licence
• 55% had ridden at 40 mph or more in a 30 mph limit
• 31% did not wear full protective helmet and leathers
• 28% said they had ridden a stolen bike
• 27% had done more than 60 mph on a bendy country road
• 27% admitted to racing another bike on public roads
• 19% said they’d ridden a bike high on drugs
• 16% had ridden a bike when drunk.

46% of those who had ridden a bike unlicensed had had a crash – though not necessarily when they were riding unlicensed – compared with 24% of those who had not ridden unlicensed and had crashed.

Although care must be exercised in generalising these figures to other school students, in London or elsewhere in the UK, the sample size is large enough for the figures for this sample to be statistically robust. Further research in other locations, collecting data on young unlicensed motorcycle/ moped riders by a variety of methods, is called for.

Asked about their car driving:

• 48% had driven at 40 mph or more in a 30 mph limit
• 40% had driven a car when they didn’t have a licence
• 30% did not always belt-up when driving
• 19% had driven at more than 60 mph on a bendy country road
• 15% had raced another driver on the public highway
• 11% had driven a stolen car
• 7% had driven after taking illegal drugs
• 5% had driven drunk.

Of those who said they had driven unlicensed:

• 56% had driven at 40 or more in a 30 limit (v 48% overall)
• 29% did not always belt up when driving (v 30%)
• 26% said they had driven a stolen car (v 11%)
• 24% had driven at 60 or more on bendy country roads (v 19%)
• 24% had raced with another driver on public roads (v 15%)
• 12% had driven after taking illegal drugs (v 7%)
• 7% had driven drunk (v 5%).

Of those who said they had driven unlicensed, more had had crashes, more had been flashed by a speed camera and more reported dangerous driving manoeuvres and other driving illegalities.

Tested on their knowledge of road safety statistics about pedestrian and young driver fatalities, those who held a driving licence of any sort scored slightly, and statistically significantly, higher than those without (3.60: 3.33). The mean number correct did not differ between those who had crashed and had not crashed, between those who had been flashed and had not been flashed, between those who had and had not driven unlicensed or ridden unlicensed. And mean correct scores did not differ with gender or age. Experience of driving, but not other factors, makes a small difference to knowledge about the statistical risks facing pedestrians and young drivers.

I think that this sort of scenario could actually be an ideal place for a VAS warning about the junction. Installing a camera would simply make people take their eyes off the road ahead and stare at their speedo especially as, in the scenario you describe, the limit falls from 60 to 40.

What could be even better is to, say have a standard warning sign about the junction and then an electronic one which flashes up a warning with something like "Car turning onto road" when a car actually does that or waits at a stop line on the side road.

Cameras are deployed in the arrogant belief that you shouldn't have to understand or have things explained - you simply have to comply.

But can you honestly say, hand on heart, that if you were in the position of being able to instantly abolish all cameras you would be willing to do so, and take the rap for any consequent increase in fatalities?

Unfortunately we have to cater for the lowest common denominator in terms of driver skill. It’s been known for boy racers to increase their speed at VAS signs to see how high they can get the number…

But can you honestly say, hand on heart, that if you were in the position of being able to instantly abolish all cameras you would be willing to do so, and take the rap for any consequent increase in fatalities?

I read an interview with Stormfuhrer Brunstrom where he said he had the technology to introduce cameras to stop people tailgating.