Safe Speed Forums

Sorry for yet another post about police driving standards, but I think that this one takes the biscuit because it highlights the appalling driving standard of the police driving instructors themselves and the way in which they are prepared to unnecessarily endanger the public.

I've just seen an edition of "Motorway" on the Bravo channel in which (IIRC) Derbyshire trafpol were being trained in TPAC. This must be an example of police driving of which the police themselves are proud (otherwise they would not have consented to their publication). As such, it cannot be a one-off and I suspect to my horror that this goes on regularly.

They did an exercise on the A38 in Derbyshire at speeds in excess of 110 mph. The "target" vehicle (I assume driven by a police driving instructor) weaved from lane to lane, undertook, overtook, tailgated civilians, and generally behaved like the worst of lunatics that you see on "Stop, Police, Action" etc. These dual-carriageway antics were after a 90mph chase along single-carriageway "feeders" to the A38.

Now the clincher -- it was raining heavily and, from the spray coming from the vehicles, it was perfect aquaplaning conditions. In other words, if something had gone wrong (e.g. a civilian strayed into the wrong lane at or below the legal speed limit), a multi-vehicle pile-up was unavoidable.

Ok, the police need to train to carry out these techniques, but why must they endanger the public? Why can't they use a private track or at least use speed and separation with civilian vehicles commensurate with public safety? With such a cavalier attitude and such dangerous driving of the police driving instructors (and so, allegedly, the best of the best of the best) themselves, it is little wonder that police driving is so bad.

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Will

I agree that the road is not the best place for the police drivers to train on. In fact I personally know of a Police driver who when a shift is quiet at night will go and race around the quiet lanes for something to do. The thing that we do all have to remember though is that there is no better training than on the job training. It is just such a horrendous thought that all of our lives are put at risk when they are training.

Hi Will!

You really are convinced we cannot drive aren't you!


Er - I have played the "villain" in an exercise before now. But you have to remember - these cars have above average tyres and other safety gismos attached - before we do this sort of thing. And - despite what you think - we are very well trained - and we would abort the exercise if there was any sign that road safety for all would be compromised.

Hear what you are saying. We have simulators and we do practice on circuit tracks and disused airfields - but we do need to practice in live circumstances as well.

Agree - it is not ideal - but we cannot close off A38 or in my case A1/A167 A68 etc. People moaned like crazy when M11 was shut for 15 hours after car accident last week.

But you would be unhappy if we did not try to catch the bad guys - wouldn't you?


Get lots of earache about this from the rest of the family! Cannot win! They do see me and the other BiB relatives as "enemy"

Yes, I am - and I see enough examples of appalling police driving to justify my conviction. Equally, I'm convinced that you lot show the arrogance bred by familiarity that often preceeds catastrophe and need to take proper stock. The evidence is right there in your own publicity; the reality TV shows where you can see the police driving like madmen. The increase in per-capita KSI rate for police drivers is no fluke and, unfortunately, there are a lot of civilians caught up in the mayhem that poor police driving causes.


So, following less than a car length behind a civilian at over 70 mph along crowded, wet roads is safe? Personally, I think not. If something went pear-shaped at that speed and separation, you wouldn't even have time to depress the brake pedal let alone time for the brakes to start slowing the vehicle down. It wouldn't be safe on a dry road, let alone a wet one. An exercise is supposed to be practice not some gung-ho display of machismo or an adrenaline rush.


I'm not saying that you don't need to practice "in the wild". However, the televised exercise was dangerous and the instructor who played the "bandit" needs to be brought to task for such a display - even if that meant him losing his license. FWIW, I would be happier if you didn't catch the bad guys than if you did catch the bad guys but caused substantial "collateral damage" on the way.

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Will

I agree that on the face of it this was an appalling piece of driving, didn't see the show BTW, and having witnessed a similar lack of judgement by a plain wrapper Volvo with a police training sticker on the back bumper.
As I understand it, police high speed training is first of all taught on closed ground, where they can make screw-up to their hearts delight and find out what the car is really capable of.
And this is only after being on "normal" cars for a number of years and going through extra training just for them.
They are taught and assessed by highly experienced and qualified instructors who will not pass a numpty just to keep the numbers up.
Any time a driver has an "incident", the instructor who passed them must look at themselves as well thinking "should I have passed them?"
I wish there was no need for high speed police cars, but while there are cretins who insist on driving cars dangerously, there is a need.
Having said all that, having a high speed police driver fully qualified on his or her way to help me out in an incident, I find somewhat reassuring, after all, a few seconds could mean the difference to life or death, and probably does quite often.
I am also speaking as a person who has driven ambulances on blue lights and siren only to have some numpty DELIBERATELY blocking my route.
I also lived in Germany, where blue lights have a God given right of way and you will need God to help you out when you go up before the beak on the charge of impeding the route of a blue light.

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Semper in excreta, nur quantitat variat.

Definitely , but for all we know he might have been showing off a bit for the cameras. I'm not saying that's an excuse, just that his behaviour might not be representative of his colleagues who don't have the BBC in the back seat.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

These topics are not "easy". Clearly there are compromises to be made. I don't suppose anyone really thinks that training inexperienced Police officers in traffic is ideal, but it might well be the best compromise.

In the 1930's, before Hendon, the Met are supposed to have been having one crash per 7,000 miles. After Hendon this figure rose and rose to about 120,000 miles per crash in the late 1980s. I hear it has now dropped back to 12,000 miles per crash. (The three numbers were given to me verbally by an ex Met traffic officer. I haven't been able to verify them.)

It doesn't sound like the quality of the training now meets the right standards.

I also think that Police driver training was the key factor that actually gave us the safest roads in the World - mainly by leakage of culture. See:

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/roadsafety.html

There must be dozens of excellent reasons to provide the highest possible standard of training to Police drivers. - And only one reason not to. It's expensive.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Yes - we use book tracks and airfields. We practise stingers etc this way.

Trainees do have to pass tests before advanced training as well. They have to show "promise"





Not that easy to pass our trafpol test - Will seems unfortunate - he appears to have met pretzels in pandas!

If we screw up - we are interviewed - and depending upon the"investigation" - we can end up on a disciplinary, even before the beak on an "undue care" charge. We do get dealt with severely for bad standards.



Oh - how I wish numpties knew how to behave when we have all lights and sirens blaring.

We have to practise - and perhaps there was play to the camera in the show. But you have to remember - scrotes do not think "Raining - so I won't nick that car, rob a bank asnd terrorise halfthe neighbourhood. Pursuits are managed - and if it gets too risky - they get aborted!

I am sure they play to camera. I do not drive like madman. Perhaps - my generation were trained better. "In my day ....." Gosh! Feel old farty now!




Oh - do not get adrenaline rush! When they ask me to play "scrote" - don my baseball cap - etc. Check over the motor, tyres - etc. We have to make it realistic! And I am reasonably safe - much safer than genuine scrote! First sign of trouble - and I abort the job. Certainly do not get too close to civvies in that situation - motto is "common sense" at all times - forme anyway. Not one of my fave jobs though. Would rather close a road down - but it is just not practical.



We do abort if it is likely to get out of hand. Scrote will re-offend and we can get another chance. We do behave ourselves in our patch - whether training or live - but Derbyshire - another scam prat hot spot!

Will is unfortunate, but the misfortune is not in having a uniquely bad patch for police driving. Just as you suddenly notice how many of a particular model car there are on the road after you've bought one, I started noticing poor police driving after a friend of my wife was maimed by one particular example of police driving.

You'd think that, like the "just-bought car" syndrome, the promenance of poor police driving would fade with time, but it hasn't. It hasn't for one very good reason -- police driving is getting worse. Twenty years ago, I'd see the occasional example of poor police driving - enough to remind me that the police are not infallible but nothing more. Recently, I see examples of poor police driving almost daily.

As to the police being "dealt with severely for bad standards", that certainly wasn't the case with the officer who turned my wife's friend into a cripple. He only got points on his "police driving license". His civilian license remained untarnished, and he carried on with his life with the incident just a "minor blip" in his career.

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Will

I think there lies the nub of the problem. Their job requires the police to drive outside the normal civilian envelope. Ergo, they need the training to do that and so do their job. However, there is evidence that training is not being given, that the instructors themselves have shortcomings, and that what training there is should be re-evaluated.

For any craft to survive, you must have skilled exponents to pass their skills on to their apprentices. Unfortunately, I suspect that the skill-base on which to found police driver training has atrophied from financial neglect and political myopia to the point where the training that the public deserve their police to have is no longer viable.

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Will

I don't believe that any special skills are required to drive fast per se. After all, any idiot can a drive half-decent car at 120mph on a deserted motorway in good weather - and get away with it.
And there's probably no substantive difference to the outcome of colliding with a tree at 70mph or 100mph - you can't be deader than dead.
I believe that the real skill is in knowing what speed you can safely do given the conditions at the time.

Regards
Peter

As an ex police officer who has been through the Hendon trained process I cannnot help but feel resentment to the current policies being enforced across the country.

The course I attended was extremely good and the training I received has held me in good stead both driving within the force and within my private life. There is no denying that driving to the system works and anyone completing the course is a better driver.

The reference to the National speed limit sign as the GLF sign ( Go Like Fuck) may give the wrong impression ...

The one thing the course taught me was the 3 S's, safety - smoothness and speed.

I recently received 3 points for doing 83mph on an empty motorway (M180) in perfect conditions on a saturday morning. I saw the camera van parked in a police layby on the motorway. I looked in the mirror and saw a vehicle behind me. I looked at my speedo and slowed gradually. If I had braked hard I probably would have escaped a ticket however I would almost certainly have caused a potential accident situation. More fool me ... I should have been driving at 70mph in the first place - yep you are right ... no argument ... it is an absolute offence. Is 83mph such a henious offence ?

What really pisses me off is when I am doing the speed limit and I am overtaken by police vehicles which are quite clearly not on a response call - the only time traffic laws can be broken. If a policy is going to be enforced then at least abide by those standards.

When I was an officer I stopped hundreds of peoples for speeding - I never issued a speeding ticket. I did get an awful lot of arrests from other offences as a result of the stop. I did issue numerous summons for WDC or reckless however straight forward speeding - No. I am not sure about the capabilities of modern camera's however I suspect that they are incapable of performing a search of a vehicle or preforming a name check on the occupants let alone performing a breath test. The fact that one does not even have to show an insurance document makes the whole speeding enforcement policy a farce - pay the money, accept the points and who cares about insurance ...

The above is a very mellow version of my ranting and raving. I am gutted that the esteem a day to day officer is held in is being so drastically effected by the speed enforcement policy. Having spent 18mths away from this country travelling around the world, I know that our police are the envy of the world. They have reached this position as a result of the support of the public and their position as a service not a force. The various speed enforcement policies being implemented across the country will jeapodise that support and have a huge effect on the day to day policing this country relies on.

Lets not throw it all away in the cause of raising money ...

Can see you and In Gear (my cousin through marriage and senior officer under most sensible CC in the country having good old natter!




Clean licence - but you are not alone there - mate!



I-G did this course - he keeps bangin' on about it. He is a good driver - but naturally - in the family - nowt is sacred!




And so do IAM and RoSPA And Jolly Roger - please note - so doe Paul Ripley and John Lyons



Bad luck - mate! Must be gutting! And nope - 83mph is hardly offensive. Even Switzerland (limit 81mph - prosecute at 84mph and it is mountainous region - full of hazards! )



Exactly. My wife had a go at BiBs on PH over this. Check out threads involving cop called "Streetcop". She gave him hell and he has run away. She now feels "guilty!" She just joked about shout meanin' "unexploded donut and saucer of milk" at services and they went al huffy and puffy at her



You sound like I-G's type of guy! In fact, Wildy is nodding as she is reading this!

Exactly why we are soooooooo against these scams. we still have clean licences - and do try to keep legal at all times. We have b2s to detect scams. Not gone jammer route yet - but admit we are tempted only because of way our SteveC insists on zapping us regardless. Then has cheek to tell Wildy that she keeps "legal because of his policies". Nope - we keep legal because road conditions dictate so - and we spot talivan twit based on business minds and not safety minds



Hear hear!

Welcome mate!

Welcome. I hope you enjoy the "right thinking" exchanges that are commonplace here.

I think I agree with every single word you wrote. I'm doing whatever I can to get things back on track.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Still did - when I trained there. But - um - getting on a bit now!



Condolences mate! Exactly why majority are ranting off about this. Did not happen before, does not happen on my patch - and my patch has good record. And good example of how these darned things lead to accidents. We are now seeing people - from scam hotspots, braking automatically when they see us. And what p****s me off is - they are legal . Think my cousin (that wild person on PH ) makes valid point when she says it is "Pavlov Dog Conditioning" and it does not bode well for absolute road safety.



Agree mate! Have never done this myself. Feel it would be two-faced.



It never ceases to amaze me how many of our pulls result in positive breath tests, illegal docs, driving whilst banned (usually under totting up form neighbouring Prat Counties, ) and quite frequent more serious felon gets banged to rights at same time.

And trafpols don'tgive value for money?



Endorse your sentiments completely - mate! We are indeed seeing less respect - and these scams are not helping at all. Not even helping accident reduction overall - either! But are quite effective at raising funds to purchase more scams and mickey mouse jobs!

mate!




I saw that thread! The guy did start out giving good advice initially - but Wildy just asked same question as Will here - and he went off on one a bit to her. Takes all sorts I guess! Thought it highly entertaining thread meself!

Yes - I can understand that. Perhaps it just seems that you are seeing more examples of poor standards because of being on specific look-out for them.

You know I lost a cousin due to an artic. with dodgy everything ploughing
into him. I confess - it coloured my judgement a bit. I found I was stopping all trucks and vehicles over a certain age for some months afterwards. I then stopped all motorists for slightest swerve after my cousin (Wildy - Mad lad's wife) was nearly killed by the fatally ill driver. It tokk me nearly 12 months to readjust myself - and it was not a good working situation.

But I do agree - training is not quite as it was - and there is a certain element who do think that police training equips them with super human powers for some reason. Personally - cannot understand why. You do not, as Wildy said to that cop on PH, suddenly get X-ray vision and ability to see around corners. What you do get are some valuable techniques in car control, hazard perception and sharpened reaction times.

It gave me exactly what is gave "majordomo" - safety, smoothness and speed. In fact, exactly what IAM and RoSPA tests give other advanced motorists!

But as Paulie says - this training is expensive. It is not as intense and some areas have cut it right back - choosing to rely on darned scams instead. There is Lancs cop on PH - only cop on patrol in that large county! Used to be half-dozen when he started and two dozen when I started!

It is a disgrace. Higher taxation for all - and no services to show for it in provisions of policing, public transport, health and education - to name but a few core services we all need to survive!



As I said to you before - cannot understand why he was let off so lightly. Would not happen in our Force. Our boss demands high standards from us - and discipline is tough!

Undeniably ... as I wrote in my previous post, it's the "just-bought car syndrome."

However, with time you become desensitised to the syndrome whether it is a particular model car just after you've bought one, satellite TV aerials just after you've had Sky installed, wobbly artics, or whatever. With time, the effect diminishes. However, the number of incidents of poor police driving that I spot has risen from maybe one or two per month just after my wife's friend's incident to near-epidemic proportions now. If my perception followed the norm for "just-bought car syndrome", I should be noticing fewer incidents of poor police driving whereas I am actually perceiving a good deal more of them. This surely is evidence that police driving standards have declined.

I suspect that the decline of police driving standards started in earnest in the early nineties. By the mid nineties, the rot was certainly set in. I say that because of incidents that coincide with my ownership of a particular car in 1995/96. I do wonder whether there is substance to the apparent correlation between the decline in police driving standards and the reliance on automatic enforcement.

So, we have the figures that Paul quoted up-thread that indicates the police accident rate has increased; my personal perception, which although not rigorous science is spread over enough years and counties to indicate a widespread problem; and the reality TV footage that shows the police driving like madmen for all the world to see.

What I would like to see is some senior police officers taking a cold, hard look at police driving standards, and the evidence of its decline, with a view to restoring police driving skills to the envy of the world they once were. The public deserves every police officer who may need to drive beyond the civilian envelope to be capable of doing so safely and without harm to the public that they are supposed to protect. That implies a requirement for training and ongoing re-evaluation well beyond the standard required for civilians. It doesn't matter whether the police officer concerned is a "panda prezel", trafpol, or even a dog handler..

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Will

I think that police driving standards must be brought up to scratch for today's roads.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/mers ... 929607.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/suffolk/3797723.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/mers ... 752485.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3655449.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hamp ... 604917.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/mers ... 581347.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/mers ... 580241.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3524471.stm

They're just matches from March 2004 to now! No doubt there are some bloody good police drivers out there (probably those trained in the good old days). But standards have slipped and it's costing lives!