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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 19:47 
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On my way to Stoke today, I noted, as approached what is affectionately called "Monkey Island" a Scamera van parked in a parking area on the far side of the road from myself. The road A34 is dual carriageway (40 limit) and the van appeared to be targetting vehicles coming in my direction (I don't think I was "in danger" by the way, but you never know...).

This means it was operating across the carriageways with two lanes of traffic passing it close to the van going the opposite direction from the vehicles being scanned.

Is this permissable?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 19:53 
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Fairly certain there was a reference in a post time ago to this where it was not allowed as the passing vehicles could upset readings , can't find reference - anyone got it ??

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 21:08 
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prof beard wrote:
On my way to Stoke today, I noted, as approached what is affectionately called "Monkey Island" a Scamera van parked in a parking area on the far side of the road from myself. The road A34 is dual carriageway (40 limit) and the van appeared to be targetting vehicles coming in my direction (I don't think I was "in danger" by the way, but you never know...).

This means it was operating across the carriageways with two lanes of traffic passing it close to the van going the opposite direction from the vehicles being scanned.

Is this permissable?


how can you say the operator was targeting vehicles on the opposite carriageway,

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 22:19 
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Yes, I have a case which I am taking to court about it.

And no, it is not permissible. The witness statement signed by the camera operator says it was operated according to the ACPO code of practice and camera partnership guidelines. But it was not. They shot themeselves in the foot with that one.

Dig around on this very forum and you'll see my post from around January this year (6 months ago... oh well, justice is quick isn't it?)


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 22:21 
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I think I know the section of road in question here, as I was travelling down the A34 last week towards Stone from Newcastle.

It was only the second time I'd used this stretch of road and, by the time I got to Stone, I was not a happy bunny!

I found it to be one of the most infuriating and - seemingly - deliberately confusing pieces of road architecture I've had the misfortune to drive along. Posted speed limits were apparently random: 60 to 40 to 60 to 50 to 30 to 40 to 60 etc fecking etc. Nowhere near enough repeater signs, and too many islands, which meant that during the process of observation, I lost track of what the current limit for that section was.

To compound the problem, as I approached another island (which I suspect may be the one The Prof refers to) I spotted the Talivan which was parked in a lay-by on a small residential road adjacent to the A34. The front of the van was pointing towards me. This is where I got annoyed and more confused! What was the posted limit? Is he aiming to my side of the carriageway, or the opposite side? Hedging my bets, I assumed a 40 limit whilst accelerating away from the island.

As if there are not enough fixed scameras on this stretch of road!!!!!

:gatso2:

For gawd's sake........

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 07:59 
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camera operator wrote:
prof beard wrote:
On my way to Stoke today, I noted, as approached what is affectionately called "Monkey Island" a Scamera van parked in a parking area on the far side of the road from myself. The road A34 is dual carriageway (40 limit) and the van appeared to be targetting vehicles coming in my direction (I don't think I was "in danger" by the way, but you never know...).

This means it was operating across the carriageways with two lanes of traffic passing it close to the van going the opposite direction from the vehicles being scanned.

Is this permissable?


how can you say the operator was targeting vehicles on the opposite carriageway,


Is it common practice to target vehicles travelling away from the Van? - this would have been the case if they were not targetting oncoming vehicles in the opposite lane.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 09:33 
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prof beard wrote:
This means it was operating across the carriageways with two lanes of traffic passing it close to the van going the opposite direction from the vehicles being scanned. - Is this permissable?

It doesn't seem to bother the police, since that is what they did in my case.

Camera operator knows very well that this is common practice.

This is against at least three different codes, ACPO code of practice, DfT rules and the LTI 20.20 handbook, but the magistrates just ignore this, as a fellow biker experienced and got done for about £400 and 3 points.

If you need particular references, or extracts, I will dig them out.

Anton has looked into this quite a lot.

I eventually got my case discontinued, after six months of costs and effort, mostly because they tried to stitch me up with doctored video evidence.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:10 
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prof beard wrote:
On my way to Stoke today, I noted, as approached what is affectionately called "Monkey Island" a Scamera van parked in a parking area on the far side of the road from myself. The road A34 is dual carriageway (40 limit) and the van appeared to be targetting vehicles coming in my direction (I don't think I was "in danger" by the way, but you never know...).

This means it was operating across the carriageways with two lanes of traffic passing it close to the van going the opposite direction from the vehicles being scanned.

Is this permissable?

It's how I got caught the first time, before I'd found sites like this and learned to ask for photos and make the scp jump through all the hoops :)


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:30 
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Dft guidelines do not allow detection in opposite direction on duel c/way or motorway. section 3.2.1
d
Quote:
.
sites can be multi-directional and enforcement is permitted in any direction
within the site (with the exception of motorways and dual carriageways
without junctions in the site, where each direction is a separate site).
multiple housings or mobile enforcement points are allowed within the
approved site but a vehicle detected speeding by more than one camera at
a site is to be regarded as a single offence
where multiple housings are used, the number of housings must not exceed
the number approved in the operational case
at fixed camera sites, mobile enforcement may also take place within the site.


http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/d ... 032652.pdf
Quote:
Acpo code of practice insist on the camera van being within 10 feet of the carriageway
The hand-held laser will only record the true speed if it is directed along the
path of the target vehicle. The vehicle may be either approaching or receding.
If the laser is positioned at an angle to the path of the target vehicle, the
displayed speed is less than its actual speed. This reduction in speed is
proportional to the cosine of the angle.
The angular effect or cosine error is always in favour of the target vehicle,
whether the device is operated in the horizontal or vertical plane.
When operating hand-held devices from the roadside the operator should be within 10 feet of the edge of the carriageway and beyond the minimum operating range (i.e. 50 feet).
When operating hand-held devices from an overbridge, the operator must
stand where possible over the centre of the carriageway being checked. In
respect of minimum range, the operator must carry out a height check from
the level of operation to the road surface directly below then multiply this by
a factor of ten. This figure becomes the minimum distance for operation.
Health and Safety. Never point a laser speedmeter at a civil or military
aircraft, vessel or armoured vehicle. Many military aircraft, vehicles or
vessels have target acquisition detectors, some of which can initiate
automatic counter measures.

© ACPO 2004 Version 2.3 Page 66/67 of 110
and the home office scientific development bureau who gave type approval insist that the type approval is subject to ACPO code of practice being followed.

http://scienceandresearch.homeoffice.go ... iew=Binary

This is also confirmed by a letter I got from home office minister Paul Goggins

The minister wrote
Quote:
Quote:
Requirements for The day to day operation of enforcement devices have been laid down in the publication “Roads Policing Enforcement Technology Code of Practice(p67)” issued by ACPO. A copy is on their website: www.acpo.police.uk under policies.

Section 14.4 of the code of practice requires the operator to act within 10 feet of the carriage way and at a range exceeding 50 feet. It says it is important that the beam is held steady on the target area to avoid any slip factor.



I interpret this to mean that the ACPO code of practice must be followed in day to day operation. Other parts of the letter state that HOSDB only tested under these conditions to give the device its type approval.

I know of at least four cases in court at the moment with opposite c/way detection.

To clear up a bit of confusion: I interpret "the carriageway" to be "the carriageway" you are driving on. not the lane you are driving in.
A duel carriage way is "two carriageways" east bound carriageway and a west bound carriageway.

This is how the equipment was type approved and the code of practice laid down, The government minister is relying on these procedures being followed. There must have been a good reason for these rules being published

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


Last edited by anton on Sun Oct 01, 2006 06:06, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 18:49 
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Anton - since when did camera operators abide by the "guidlines " when there is a fast buck to be made - and CO - i seem to remember you mentioning something about the opposite carriageway toooo, in a post .

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 22:51 
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botach wrote:
Anton - since when did camera operators abide by the "guidlines " when there is a fast buck to be made - and CO - i seem to remember you mentioning something about the opposite carriageway toooo, in a post .


touche, i know, but what is a dual an

Quote:
sites can be multi-directional and enforcement is permitted in any direction within the site (with the exception of motorways and dual carriageways without junctions in the site, where each direction is a separate site).


each is different, unless of course it is worked outside of hypothication !!!!!

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 09:55 
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botach wrote:
Anton - since when did camera operators abide by the "guidlines " when there is a fast buck to be made - and CO - i seem to remember you mentioning something about the opposite carriageway toooo, in a post .


I got a witness statement from the camera operator which explicitly says he followed the ACPO code of practice and DfT guidelines.

He signed the document declaring if that was not true, he would be prosecutable.

I also have a statement from the Police officer who forwarded the case to the courts, who, after I sent the paperwork from Anton, assured me in a letter all their cameras comply with the code of practice and guidelines.

I am now waiting for the courts to assign me a hearing date, and I have requested the camera operator to be present in court.

I will also demand the video footage to be released as I believe they were monitoring both carriageways and I want them to prove me wrong.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 21:21 
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fnegroni -unless memory playing tricks - CO - has admitted to this being norm - try looking at his posts.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 09:53 
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botach wrote:
fnegroni -unless memory playing tricks - CO - has admitted to this being norm - try looking at his posts.


Of course you are right. But did you read my post carefully? I am saying that the camera operator declared a false statement! I am NOT arguing with you. I am just making the point that they sign a witness statement which can be used against them!


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:11 
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Quote:
sites can be multi-directional and enforcement is permitted in any direction
within the site(with the exception of motorways and dual carriageways
without junctions in the site, where each direction is a separate site).


lets break this down
sites can be multi-directional and enforcement is permitted in any direction within the site
simpe enough.

(with the exception of motorways and dual
without junctions in the site,where each direction is a separate site).


does this actually say that you can't detect across a duel carriageway or that each side of the duel carriageways is a seperate site for statisticle reasons?

dual carriageways
without junctions in the site
A Hampshire court decided that because there was a slip road entering the site tha CO could detect across a d/c.

also
none of this makes case law but anyone defending such a case or persuing a complaint needs thier arguments ready
Quote:
requires the operator to act within 10 feet of the carriage way

IMHO
A duel carriage way is "two carriageways" east bound carriageway and a west bound carriageway.

Any one fighting such a case or making such a complaint needs to get these arguments clear. A few questions to the CO such as were you on the east bound carriage way or the west. was mr x on the west bound or east bound. so he was on the OTHER CARRIAGEWAY. How far was the OTHER carriagway from your van.

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 20:58 
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fnegroni wrote:
botach wrote:
fnegroni -unless memory playing tricks - CO - has admitted to this being norm - try looking at his posts.


Of course you are right. But did you read my post carefully? I am saying that the camera operator declared a false statement! I am NOT arguing with you. I am just making the point that they sign a witness statement which can be used against them!

Apologies - no arguement - just pointing out that even some good CO's claim to operate across DC.( wHEN EVEN THEY SUGGEST THAT THIS IS VERY NAUGHTY)

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:21 
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botach wrote:
fnegroni wrote:
botach wrote:
fnegroni -unless memory playing tricks - CO - has admitted to this being norm - try looking at his posts.


Of course you are right. But did you read my post carefully? I am saying that the camera operator declared a false statement! I am NOT arguing with you. I am just making the point that they sign a witness statement which can be used against them!

Apologies - no arguement - just pointing out that even some good CO's claim to operate across DC.( wHEN EVEN THEY SUGGEST THAT THIS IS VERY NAUGHTY)


If I will be successful in my court case, I will make sure to ask the camera operator gets prosecuted.

How can they sleep at night?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 14:08 
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fnegroni wrote:
How can they sleep at night?

By couning cars. :lol:

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