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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 16:08 
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malcolmw wrote:
It will not be tempting for drivers to "race" (your emotive word) if, indeed, there are lots of hazards and you can quite easily see them. Most drivers, being responsible, will just slow to an appropriate speed for the conditions. However, you will never stop the tiny minority of lunatics driving unsafely no matter what you do.

You do not claim that there have actually been any accidents and it may be that this is because your road is actually quite safe due to the benefits of visibility which you state.

I don't think you will find any reference in my posts suggesting the speed limit be raised. I want to understand why you think very large numbers of people "speed" if it is as hazardous as you say. Speed limits should be set on the basis of the 85th percentile speed, as used to be the case until political interference started. This method demonstrably produces the safest roads.


Unfortunately it remains tempting for many drivers to drive recklessly / too fast because, and to be fair it does seem more often than not to be younger drivers doing the speeding (you can tell by their music!), not all drivers assess the hazards appropriately. It's experience that teaches us to be wary of things like parked cars etc and not all drivers are as aware of the dangers. You may be right in saying that the majority of drivers are responsible, I don't suppose that's something one could ever quantify. And you may also be right in saying that nothing will ever stop those lunatics that drive at 60mph on streets like mine. But perhaps if the cops did set up occasional temporary speed traps, they might start to think it's not worth their while doing it on that particular street. I know myself that I am more cautious when driving on streets where I've seen the cops hanging around before.

There may have been accidents, I've only lived there for 2 months and am out all day anyway so am not in a position to say.

Fair enough. I think people speed (and again I'm only talking about the people who drive really fast here) because they're reckless and irresponsible. Just because you and I drive responsibly, doesn't mean everyone else does. Are you saying that it's appropriate to drive at 50mph or 60mph on the type of residential street I have described?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 16:45 
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Are you saying that it's appropriate to drive at 50mph or 60mph on the type of residential street I have described?

I don't know the answer to this. I'd let a wide population of drivers decide.

The logic for setting speed limits should be this:

- The vast majority of drivers drive safely and do not have accidents (which are, fortunately, quite rare).
- Thus, they are, on average, driving at a safe speed based on the hazards which they perceive.
- If you record the actual speeds of a large sample of drivers on any given road (with no pre-set speed limit) then the speed below which 85% of them were going is the 85th percentile.
- This is the proper and safest (natural?) speed at which to set the limit.

If this process were to be performed on your road it would indicate the appropriate limit.

What I mean by "political interference" with the setting of limits is the special pleading by people to Councillors that "everyone speeds down my road" and "something must be done". Generally, there is little evidence for speeding and the complaint is actually about the weight of traffic passing someone's house. Speed is just a proxy for this and allows the complainant to cite safety rather than their own annoyance at their street being busy.

This is clearly not the position in your case as you say above:
Quote:
We always knew the street would be busy traffic wise...

before you moved in.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 17:11 
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Ms Scarlett wrote:
What I'm saying is that people drive at completely irresponsible and reckless speeds down my street and clearly the only way to stop them is to have bumps, cameras or mobile units.

Or, and I hate to say this, have the (real) police stop them and offer advice as to why what they are doing is dangerous? I know, that won't make them any money so they won't be interested. Of course if anyone is driving dangerously they can be taken to court for it.

Ms Scarlett wrote:
If you could see for yourself the speeds that people drive through at, you might understand why I'm so concerned and annoyed about it.

That's the problem with a forum, I can't, I can only guess. But we need to deal with facts. Why are they driving down your road? Are they driving too fast or too noisily? (Some people get confused between the two) Are they driving dangerously? Do they realise they are driving dangerously?
Know thine enemy? ;)

Ms Scarlett wrote:
Or perhaps I should wait until somebody's been killed or injured before doing anything?..

That's what the government do. :(

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 17:16 
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Would Ms Scarlett like to tell us which street she is talking about so we can have a look on Google Maps and draw our own conclusions as to its character?

Have any formal speed surveys been carried out, and if so what were the results? If not, then it is possible that her estimates of vehicle speeds are somewhat exaggerated as it is widely recognised that members of the public standing by the roadside are poor judges of vehicle speed.

If the character of the road is indeed as she describes, then I find it somewhat hard to believe that vehicles are routinely reaching speeds of 50-60 mph. If this is just a problem of the occasional nutter or boy-racer, then surely the most appropriate response would be targeted police enforcement.

Humps would simply drive the boy racers elsewhere and end up permanently inconveniencing the responsible residents.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 19:26 
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Well yeah, it's a residential street!


Aren't most streets residential?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 09:58 
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PeterE wrote:
Would Ms Scarlett like to tell us which street she is talking about so we can have a look on Google Maps and draw our own conclusions as to its character?

Funny how this thread goes quiet once someone asks for specifics :roll:

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:40 
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Apologies for my absence, I've been away all weekend and was super busy yesterday at work. And I've already written all this once then accidentally deleted it! :x

Malcolmw, it's an interesting point you make about an alternative way for speed limits to be set but I have to say I think your solution is totally unworkable. Firstly it would take far too long and cost way too much to implement. Think of the time spent on each and every road up and down the country taking average speeds then taking a percentile of them. Secondly, wouldn't you potentially end up with different speed limits on streets that are right next to each other? Thirdly, wouldn't you have to review the situation constantly? wouldn't it be possible for street x to have a 30mph average speed this year, then 35mph next year?

I have to say that I think broadly speaking, most speed limits are about right. Motorways should have a higher limit though, who drives at 70mph?! There are a few roads near me that have been reduced from 60mph to 40mph or even 30mph which is really annoying though.

Ziltro, having real cops actually stopping people and discussing why their speeds are inappropriate probably would be more effective. As I've said, I'm all for that. Whatever stops the problem is fine with me.

I won't be posting the street name however as I don't publish RL info on the net, and especially not on forums. Sorry, you'll just have to take my word for it!

I can see that most of you think that I'm either exaggerating the speeds that people drive at and/or confusing speed with busyness. I don't suppose there's much I can say to convince you that people genuinely do drive at break neck speeds down my street other than to say I've been driving a long time and am confident I can tell when someone is exceeding 40mph or 50mph. Honestly the only time I ever notice the traffic noise on my street is when people drive really fast. The rest of the time, it's just background noise that doesn't bother me at all. It's only the idiots driving so fast that really p1ss me off, and who of course are potentially going to cause accidents. I'm surprised I haven't lost a wing mirror yet to be honest.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:43 
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Ms Scarlett wrote:
Malcolmw, it's an interesting point you make about an alternative way for speed limits to be set but I have to say I think your solution is totally unworkable. Firstly it would take far too long and cost way too much to implement. Think of the time spent on each and every road up and down the country taking average speeds then taking a percentile of them. Secondly, wouldn't you potentially end up with different speed limits on streets that are right next to each other? Thirdly, wouldn't you have to review the situation constantly? wouldn't it be possible for street x to have a 30mph average speed this year, then 35mph next year?

Obviously it would be impractical to set every speed limit in that way, but the principle should be that speed limits should not be set markedly below the speed at which drivers choose to drive. This is why the 85th percentile speed has historically been widely used as a basis for speed limit setting. In the words of the Arizona Department of Transportation, "The normally careful and competent actions of a reasonable person should be considered legal."

We used to have a sensible system of speed limit setting in the UK that generally achieved this objective, but regrettably this has been abandoned in recent years.

Ms Scarlett wrote:
I won't be posting the street name however as I don't publish RL info on the net, and especially not on forums. Sorry, you'll just have to take my word for it!

I understand why you are reluctant to reveal your location but equally you must appreciate this makes it impossible to take a look at the road in question and judge for ourselves.

Perhaps you could answer the following questions:

  1. Is it a classified (A or B) road?
  2. Is it fully developed on both sides, or does some of it border farmland or parkland?
  3. How wide is it, on average?
  4. What proportion of the street frontage is typically occupied by parked cars?

If the road is genuinely as you describe it, then I would be very surprised to see an 85th percentile speed above 40 mph (and would expect it to be no higher than 35 mph), and would expect instances of speeds above 50 mph to be extremely rare.

Ms Scarlett wrote:
I can see that most of you think that I'm either exaggerating the speeds that people drive at and/or confusing speed with busyness. I don't suppose there's much I can say to convince you that people genuinely do drive at break neck speeds down my street other than to say I've been driving a long time and am confident I can tell when someone is exceeding 40mph or 50mph. Honestly the only time I ever notice the traffic noise on my street is when people drive really fast. The rest of the time, it's just background noise that doesn't bother me at all. It's only the idiots driving so fast that really p1ss me off, and who of course are potentially going to cause accidents. I'm surprised I haven't lost a wing mirror yet to be honest.

I do feel you may well be exaggerating the prevalence of such high speeds along this road.

It has been often noted in the past that people complain about the speed of traffic through their village or along their street when their underlying concern is really the volume of traffic.

I presume that no formal speed survey has been undertaken. In your opinion, what proportion of the traffic along the road exceeds 50 mph?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 15:41 
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Ms Scarlett, I have to say that I've never heared a female use the term 'cops' to describe the police. What a refreshing change.

What street are you referring to? I'm, as you can guess by my user ID, a chartered civil engineer. I'd love to have a look at this road from a professional standpoint.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 16:57 
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civil engineer wrote:
What street are you referring to? I'm, as you can guess by my user ID, a chartered civil engineer. I'd love to have a look at this road from a professional standpoint.

She's already said she's not prepared to divulge the location – see my post above. I agree it would be very interesting to see the actual spot and how it compares with the description.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 17:44 
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Fair enough,

shame though.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 18:09 
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Perhaps the OP would like to comment on how her road compares with this urban main road, which is near to where I live but not the actual road on which I live.

Wider? Narrower? Straighter? Bendier? More or less built up? More parked cars?

I often walk along this road and sometimes even wait for a bus on it :oops: I can't say I've ever noticed a car doing (in my estimation) over 50 mph.

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Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 02:09 
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Ms Scarlett wrote:
Apologies for my absence, I've been away all weekend and was super busy yesterday at work. And I've already written all this once then accidentally deleted it! :x

Malcolmw, it's an interesting point you make about an alternative way for speed limits to be set but I have to say I think your solution is totally unworkable. Firstly it would take far too long and cost way too much to implement. Think of the time spent on each and every road up and down the country taking average speeds then taking a percentile of them. Secondly, wouldn't you potentially end up with different speed limits on streets that are right next to each other? Thirdly, wouldn't you have to review the situation constantly? wouldn't it be possible for street x to have a 30mph average speed this year, then 35mph next year?

I have to say that I think broadly speaking, most speed limits are about right. Motorways should have a higher limit though, who drives at 70mph?! There are a few roads near me that have been reduced from 60mph to 40mph or even 30mph which is really annoying though.

Ziltro, having real cops actually stopping people and discussing why their speeds are inappropriate probably would be more effective. As I've said, I'm all for that. Whatever stops the problem is fine with me.

I won't be posting the street name however as I don't publish RL info on the net, and especially not on forums. Sorry, you'll just have to take my word for it!

I can see that most of you think that I'm either exaggerating the speeds that people drive at and/or confusing speed with busyness. I don't suppose there's much I can say to convince you that people genuinely do drive at break neck speeds down my street other than to say I've been driving a long time and am confident I can tell when someone is exceeding 40mph or 50mph. Honestly the only time I ever notice the traffic noise on my street is when people drive really fast. The rest of the time, it's just background noise that doesn't bother me at all. It's only the idiots driving so fast that really p1ss me off, and who of course are potentially going to cause accidents. I'm surprised I haven't lost a wing mirror yet to be honest.


Well if you wanted to you can google earth your street (making sure that you turn off the street label option), then [Control] Printscreen (or PrtSc SysRq) (as in Print Screen Request) button on your computer (top right-ish) and then copy paste or [Control] 'V' to an image program (Paint Shop Pro) or others, then select the area of the street only (as the computer saved screen will show the location), save that and then post it up online and then put in a link to that here. :) Then we can 'see' without knowing where, preferably the whole road in a few pictures if it is a long one, then we can at least better 'judge'.

You can PM me the general location if you felt that was secure, and I can promise you that I would.

As you are out all day as you say, but have lived in the area all your life I assume that you are generally aware of the average traffic situation.

It seems from the posts that you are really only talking about drivers that are either on the rat run to and from work - hence that you 'are aware of them more'.
Camera's & humps, do nothing for road safety, as our website will clearly points out. Nor will they solve your problem but will cause new problems. Camera effect the way in which people drive see here. Cameras/humps, will not put people off, driving down your street, as of the road layout, and your (probably) correct assumptions, about the reason why people travel due to the awkward junction, need to be properly addressed.
Many traffic light systems are know to be on 'programmed control', that appears to be delaying traffic. Maybe the junction is being perhaps avioded because this isn't helping. There are many many reasons why the junction is an issue, and they need to be looked into and proper traffic flow issues addressed.

This forum is all for helping as much as possible, there are many very knowledgeable people that tread these forums :)
I agree that asking for Police presence on the street and having good research done locally would help in the long term which I assume is your true aim.
The local 'rogue' drivers will not be deterred by any camera and we do not agree with their use, as it distracts drivers eyes away from the road ahead, and as you say that many children in the local area, have not been taught how to use the roads properly, then this is a highly dangerous combination.
I would strongly urge that the Police are encouraged to help you tackle these rogue drivers, than have the council add to it's coffers and still have no resulting solution to your problem. Also the local schools should be approached for a parents/child road safety education, rapidly.
Even a ped crossing with flashing beacons maybe worth the council investing in.

It is very easy to blame all drivers, yet even in just a few posts, we have established, that we are looking at a small group of drivers that you believe are not driving responsibly.
I would suggest that perhaps asking the local cops too to run some driving technique classes, in the local vicinity may attract these drivers and so remind everyone of the importance of driving carefully.
making sure that there is good visibility on the road for people who are about, is important to help drivers visibility.
You also say that the park is further down the road, could drivers be slowing when they see a real or potential hazard? but perhaps that is not precisely outside your door (ish)?
With regard to the Motorcyclist, I would go and chat to him/her, and chat to them about the bike, and what causes the 'noise', perhaps they have a temporary problem and waiting for parts. I would be pretty miffed if someone just complained rather than approached me directly.
They are after all your nearby neighbours? Perhaps they are partly deaf and don't understand how it is upsetting you? perhaps they would do it less if they understood your feelings, after all would that then be a bit more tolerable? I believe in dealing with problems head on.
But I appreciate that now-a-days we are more taught, that other people maybe dangerous, so, we should not even trust one another, or even chat to one another. If you are unhappy take a friend with you.
Road Safety is very important and each alteration to a road system has repercussions.
I believe that education is a big key to getting this right. I would tend to start there.
Most young drivers need to gain experience and through experience and age we more appreciate the risks in life. Hence why it can be so hard to 'impart' this to young drivers. After all in the War if young men were too scared then we may not have won it !
So it remains a hard feat to educate this into new or young drivers.
However young drivers have sharper hearing and reactions (often) and this is on their side.
When you got run over (how awful for you), I am sure that the driver 'reacted', prior to impact (and braked), unless you were incredibly unlucky ? If you felt up to chatting about that we would happily open it up in a new topic, to discuss at length. By understand facts, we believe that we may improve.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:50 
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Ms Scarlett wrote:
As I'm sure we all know, children don't have much road sense and don't understand how dangerous walking out from between parked cars can be.


whose fault is that? when i got my first mountain bike i went out and bought a highway code before i got the bike. educating children is the easiest problem here to solve. unless of course parents dont believe in taking responsibility these days :x

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 23:15 
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Ms Scarlett wrote:
I was wondering if anyone here could give me any advice on how to go about getting the council to install speed cameras / bumps in my road?

My OH and I recently bought a house and it turns out that people use our street as a racetrack / rat-run / short cut. Apart from being dangerous to local children, my cat and wing mirrors on my car, the noise is really irritating. People are regularly doing 50-60mph on a 30mph limit road and it's driving me mad! Is there anything we can do to convince the council to do something about this?

Also, slightly irrelevant but bear with me, there's a guy on the street who has literally the noisiest motorbike I've ever heard. Even though he lives a few doors down on the other side of the street, when he revs the engine, it's so loud that we can't hear ourselves speak. I'm sure that can't be legal! Thanks


It often means a hard slog ahead of you to get anything done that is lasting, it will sometimes take the unfortunate mishap to bring about action but I wish you luck. Keep nagging the authorities, get others to back you, if you get a dozen people to write to parliarment that can sometimes help. Things you can do yourself include setting up a community watch, get cameras at the ready and record all ills, post clear signs at the end of the street indicating cameras being used is one idea i heard of :roll: . This may help a little, and dont fret too much about posting a sign cos if you are nicked for it (so Ive heard)you then have leverage through media against ignorant authorities, if its taken down ,put another up is what some might say :roll: ! The official route can be long and drawn out but keep going.Installing cameras is unlikely and speed humps can in somecases make matters worse(depends on situations in your area) one road I know had speed bumps placed and it increased high revving and speed between humps by some and even faster speeding by others who realised if they went faster they got over the humps with less of a jolt and it attracted youths on mopeds who thought it great to pop a little wheelie over them and it also increased noise, so those measures are not always the way forward.

If the bike is on private property you can only do something as a noise nuisense,record it if you can and call council, if it takes to the road and you feel it is a loud exhaust tell the cops, tell them enough times and they will nick him. Im a bike fan but if someone is inconsiderate in their own street rather than a passing through situation they deserve a bigger slap so to speak.


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