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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 16:50 
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There is a problem that SafeSpeed (without looking at the site) comes across as a campaign for lower speed limits and more cameras.

We need a tag line that stands out.

fighting to avoid another 10 years of failed road safety policy


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 16:53 
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The letters "SS" in a UK standard speed limit sign layout are intended to remind drivers about the importance to road safety of selecting a Safe and appropriate Speed according to the conditions.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 16:55 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
The letters "SS" in a UK standard speed limit sign layout are intended to remind drivers about the importance to road safety of selecting a Safe and appropriate Speed according to the conditions.


How? If someone doesn't know about SafeSpeed then how are they to know what it means? What do people associate the letters SS with more? Ships, WW2, Cars, or SafeSpeed????

Maybe you should put 'SafeSpeed' in the sign as opposed to just 'SS'???


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 17:05 
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Some of the above posts about car names remind me of an occasion recently when I came up behind a Toyota LiteAce van that had been professionally converted into a motorcaravan. It had been renamed the MasterAce. Probably OK for a Toyota but not a good name, for example, for a Mercedes.

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 17:05 
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Mr Chirpy wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
The letters "SS" in a UK standard speed limit sign layout are intended to remind drivers about the importance to road safety of selecting a Safe and appropriate Speed according to the conditions.


How? If someone doesn't know about SafeSpeed then how are they to know what it means? What do people associate the letters SS with more? Ships, WW2, Cars, or SafeSpeed????

Maybe you should put 'SafeSpeed' in the sign as opposed to just 'SS'???


It would look rather different since "Safe Speed" has rather more characters than "70". Many folk do recognise it as a speed limit sign, but not all. There's a "did you know" on the front page of the web site about it.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 17:40 
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If you were trying to make that point, then why didn't you say exactly that in the first place?


Because it's nice to live in hope that the audience are sufficiently clued-up as to be able to infer the meaning from a carefully worded comment, instead of simply having to force-feed them with the desired information.

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You actually mentioned items placed in windows and admitted that they can be dangerous in one paragraph.


The irony is that I was specifically referring to "baby on board" (and similar safety-influenced) stickers that in my experience are the ones most likely to be placed in such a way as to hinder rearward visibility. All the other examples I mentioned are, almost without exception, placed in locations that have no/minimal impact on visibility.


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Most vehicles have several areas of glass which could comfortably accommodate a reasonably sized sticker without causing a problem.


How big is reasonably sized?


About the same size as the majority of other circular window stickers you'll see on vehicles in this country.


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Eh?? What are you on? The person has suggested its use as a window sticker so I am basing my argument on that suggestion, made clearly in the post.


I've already dealt with the visibility non-issue of it being used for its suggested purpose, but I'm also offering an alternative suggestion for use which would have none of the visibility problems you're using as one of your objections to the sticker. The only thing I'm on is my chair :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 17:55 
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Mr Chirpy wrote:
Ah yes, but to deny history is to deny who we are and where we have come from.

I bet if you did a general survey with that sticker there would be others who would think like me.


No-one is denying history, nor should we - the actions of the Third Reich are something that shouldn't be forgotten. But neither should we be so overly sensitive about it or the effect it has on its survivors that we end up taking offence on their behalf without knowing whether or not the people who actually suffered at the hands of the SS feel any such offence at seeing those initials displayed in a different context.

As for the general survey, good idea. Especially if it ends up with similar results to the surveys which show that a sizeable number of younger people know little or nothing about the events of the early 20th century... Of course there'll be others who think like you, but would they be in the majority?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 18:03 
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I'll lay odds that more people under 30 don't know the wartime meaning of SS than those who do :roll:


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 20:10 
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Twister wrote:
Mr Chirpy wrote:
Ah yes, but to deny history is to deny who we are and where we have come from.

I bet if you did a general survey with that sticker there would be others who would think like me.


No-one is denying history, nor should we - the actions of the Third Reich are something that shouldn't be forgotten. But neither should we be so overly sensitive about it or the effect it has on its survivors that we end up taking offence on their behalf without knowing whether or not the people who actually suffered at the hands of the SS feel any such offence at seeing those initials displayed in a different context.

As for the general survey, good idea. Especially if it ends up with similar results to the surveys which show that a sizeable number of younger people know little or nothing about the events of the early 20th century... Of course there'll be others who think like you, but would they be in the majority?


It would indeed be interesting to form some sort of survey, and as you suggest I may be in a minority of younger people who know a bit about our history.

It saddens me that some people my age (25) don't know what SS meant 50 odd years ago!


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 20:13 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
Mr Chirpy wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
The letters "SS" in a UK standard speed limit sign layout are intended to remind drivers about the importance to road safety of selecting a Safe and appropriate Speed according to the conditions.


How? If someone doesn't know about SafeSpeed then how are they to know what it means? What do people associate the letters SS with more? Ships, WW2, Cars, or SafeSpeed????

Maybe you should put 'SafeSpeed' in the sign as opposed to just 'SS'???


It would look rather different since "Safe Speed" has rather more characters than "70". Many folk do recognise it as a speed limit sign, but not all. There's a "did you know" on the front page of the web site about it.


Well then how about making the website more obvious. When people look at your logo they will notice the SS, some will note its a speed limit sign but I bet you many won't. They will probably think the SS means something else.

To someone unaware of SafeSpeed and the road sign links it is purely 'SS', what meaning does that have????????


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 20:18 
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Twister wrote:
Quote:
If you were trying to make that point, then why didn't you say exactly that in the first place?

Quote:
Because it's nice to live in hope that the audience are sufficiently clued-up as to be able to infer the meaning from a carefully worded comment, instead of simply having to force-feed them with the desired information.


Maybe if better wording was used in the first place then clued up people would be able to understand what you were supposedly hinting at.

Quote:
Most vehicles have several areas of glass which could comfortably accommodate a reasonably sized sticker without causing a problem.


Why is there glass there in the first place then?

Quote:
Eh?? What are you on? The person has suggested its use as a window sticker so I am basing my argument on that suggestion, made clearly in the post.

Quote:
I've already dealt with the visibility non-issue of it being used for its suggested purpose, but I'm also offering an alternative suggestion for use which would have none of the visibility problems you're using as one of your objections to the sticker. The only thing I'm on is my chair :wink:


Yes but what is your chair on? Think about it and you will realise that you are sitting on more than just your chair! :wink:


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 02:00 
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Most vehicles have several areas of glass which could comfortably accommodate a reasonably sized sticker without causing a problem.


Why is there glass there in the first place then?


1. Because it makes the shape of the glass more regular, allowing for easier manufacture and installation, and improved structural strength - remember that in more recent vehicle designs, a certain amount of the body rigidity is gained through the front screen (not sure if the rear screen contributes as well, though it wouldn't surprise me if it did), so there's more involved in selecting the shape and placement of the glass relative to the rest of the bodywork than simply whether it provides a view for the driver.

2. Because whilst it doesn't provide any visibility for the driver it does provide extra visibility for passengers.

3. Because different drivers have different seating positions and eyelines such that a piece of glass which may provide visibility for one driver provides no visibility for another.

4. Because the vehicle designer simply thought it looked better to use glass for that particular area of the bodywork.

5... ? I'm out of ideas now, but I think 4 different reasons for a piece of glass being there when it's of no apparent use to a particular driver should be more than enough to answer your question.


e.g. On the rear screen of my car there's a decent sized strip along the lower edge where, sitting in my usual driving position, the only thing I can see through it is the boot lid. Another driver sitting in the exact same car, but using a slightly different driving position, may very well be able to see something more useful through that particular strip of glass, but for me it would be the ideal place to place a sticker. Similarly, the quarterlight on the right rear door provides absolutely no visibility from the drivers seat thanks to the thickness of the door pillars and the shallow viewing angle, so plastering that with stickers would make no difference whatsoever to my visibility.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 10:51 
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Good reply Twister bit Chirpy is just winding us up. He just picks up in the tinyest point to make an argument. Nothing to do with the thread. Its pointless responding. He is just taking the p*ss.

The style looks familiar...... :roll:

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 12:45 
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Gizmo wrote:
Good reply Twister bit Chirpy is just winding us up. He just picks up in the tinyest point to make an argument.


Oh, I'd figured that out a long time ago :wink: But I reckon, even if the person asking the nit-picking questions is just trolling, there might be someone else reading the thread who is genuinely interested in an answer, because they'd be asking the same questions for genuine reasons.

Take this last question about pointless bits of glass - if you're a non-driver, you may very well think that blocking off any of the glass is going to reduce visibility, because you don't have any experience of sitting in a drivers seat and looking around at exactly what you can see through those bits of glass.

So yeah, it might be pointless trying to convince Chirpy, but I figure it's always worth responding with an accurate rebuttal of wild claims like theirs, if only to avoid the possibility that someone else comes along at some point in the future, reads the wild claims, doesn't see any response, and concludes that the claims must be true because no-one was able to provide a counter-claim.

Besides, even if no-one else does benefit from the rebuttal, sometimes as I'm checking my facts I end up learning new stuff - how often have you found yourself spending an hour or more browsing through new sites when all you intended to do was spend 30 seconds quickly checking something? If responding to a troll/misguided individual means my own level of knowledge is improved (or at the very least, the stuff I already knew is refreshed in my mind) then I don't see it as a waste of time, and if anyone else does benefit then it's a bonus.

Oh yeah, it also helps to bump up my post count :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 17:25 
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Gizmo wrote:
Good reply Twister bit Chirpy is just winding us up. He just picks up in the tinyest point to make an argument. Nothing to do with the thread. Its pointless responding. He is just taking the p*ss.

The style looks familiar...... :roll:


If you had any common sense you would realise that even the smallest detail can start wars!!!

I think twister is very good at providing me with a balanced debate to my genuine questions, its such a shame that you couldn't add anything decent. Oh well, i guess you'll be back at school on Monday morning, hope it helps you learn some common sense.

Also if i am simply winding people up, why then have you posted answers to other posts of mine on different threads on here?? Who is the fool??


Last edited by Mr Chirpy on Sat Jan 08, 2005 17:33, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 17:32 
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Twister wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
Most vehicles have several areas of glass which could comfortably accommodate a reasonably sized sticker without causing a problem.


Why is there glass there in the first place then?


1. Because it makes the shape of the glass more regular, allowing for easier manufacture and installation, and improved structural strength - remember that in more recent vehicle designs, a certain amount of the body rigidity is gained through the front screen (not sure if the rear screen contributes as well, though it wouldn't surprise me if it did), so there's more involved in selecting the shape and placement of the glass relative to the rest of the bodywork than simply whether it provides a view for the driver.

2. Because whilst it doesn't provide any visibility for the driver it does provide extra visibility for passengers.

3. Because different drivers have different seating positions and eyelines such that a piece of glass which may provide visibility for one driver provides no visibility for another.

4. Because the vehicle designer simply thought it looked better to use glass for that particular area of the bodywork.

5... ? I'm out of ideas now, but I think 4 different reasons for a piece of glass being there when it's of no apparent use to a particular driver should be more than enough to answer your question.


e.g. On the rear screen of my car there's a decent sized strip along the lower edge where, sitting in my usual driving position, the only thing I can see through it is the boot lid. Another driver sitting in the exact same car, but using a slightly different driving position, may very well be able to see something more useful through that particular strip of glass, but for me it would be the ideal place to place a sticker. Similarly, the quarterlight on the right rear door provides absolutely no visibility from the drivers seat thanks to the thickness of the door pillars and the shallow viewing angle, so plastering that with stickers would make no difference whatsoever to my visibility.


The reason I have genuinely questioned this is because there will no doubt be someone somewhere who may actually put the sticker in a dangerous place (someone with no common sense!!!). If this person does and it causes an accident, that is still one more accident that could be avoided.

Another reason is simply because of visibility. I thought that the whole point of glass in the car was due to this. If you think about it, as a driver you use all of the transparent parts of your car to aid visibility at some point. For instance, using a back passenger window helps you when checking over your shoulder. Wouldn't an extra sticker compromise this??

I also wondered about the construction of the window sticker in question. Why can't you just put any sort of sticker on your motocycle helmet??? Because certain chemicals can destory the protective surface of the helmet. I was just wondering whether or no certain adhesive chemicals can actually penetrate the glass and destroy the structure, without being noticeable by the human eye?? A genuine question I am sure you will agree, and an important one considering the fact that the car chassis structure is built around the glass as well as the metal.

I am not trolling, I just like to argue and debate things. Its funny how some people think that when a challenge comes along. At least you are providing decent answers, not like some other people on here!!!


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 18:38 
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Mr Chirpy wrote:
as a driver you use all of the transparent parts of your car to aid visibility at some point. For instance, using a back passenger window helps you when checking over your shoulder. Wouldn't an extra sticker compromise this??


As I noted above, not all of the glass area on a vehicle actually provides any useful visibility to a driver, and some of the area may not even be visible from the normal driving position. So it's not always correct to say you use all the transparent parts of your car, you can only use those parts which are visible from your driving position AND which then provide a view of something other than a piece of your own vehicle bodywork. I suppose there are some vehicles where all the glazed area is of use to the driver, but typically this isn't the case.


Quote:
I also wondered about the construction of the window sticker in question. Why can't you just put any sort of sticker on your motocycle helmet??? Because certain chemicals can destory the protective surface of the helmet. I was just wondering whether or no certain adhesive chemicals can actually penetrate the glass and destroy the structure, without being noticeable by the human eye??


I know of some chemicals that can attack glass, but they definitely wouldn't be present in the adhesive, ink or backing material used to make stickers. The problem with helmets is down to the use of plastics in their construction, which are more sensitive to chemical attack than glass.


Quote:
I am not trolling, I just like to argue and debate things. Its funny how some people think that when a challenge comes along.


Considering the style of your questioning and the way in which you respond to other people, it's easy to see why you're being labelled as a troll. Maybe you do have a genuine interest in road safety, it's difficult to tell.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 19:00 
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Twister wrote:
Mr Chirpy wrote:
So you would all be happy riding around with a big 'SS' sticker on your car???

Sounds like some of you should think back a few years and think about your logo!



Er - They use SS in modern German - It is used in schools and stands for Sommer Semester! SS! :wink:

Things move on and change Also the SS letters for the "Schutzstaffel" were similartothe Swastika in logo terms.

I'd check out your O Level History notes - mate! :roll: And talk to some Germans!

twister wrote:
]
What, like the important observation space that's blocked out by a tax disc, or a parking permit, or one of those smart tags for toll payments or those "baby on board" diamonds... hmm, come to think of it, some of those last ones DO block out a fair bit of rearward visibility, so much for making life safer for the baby onboard :roll:

And since this is merely a design for people to print out and use as they see fit, there's nothing forcing them to use it as a window sticker - would you have any objection to making it into a bootlid/rear bumper sticker instead?


Don't get me started on those silly "Baby on Board" stickers. I refuse to have one! That daft wife of mine did place one very rude one on the boot of my car when she found out she was expecting our youngest though! :oops: :roll: Think everyone driving behind me knew what I'd been up to :oops:

But a safespeed sticker on the boot is no different to a GB sticker. As you say - if you decide to place any sticker (IAM/RoSPA/alarm/PH/SS) you experiment to see where it is least likely to create a nuisance for any one driver using the vehicle. It is up to the driver to ensure he positions his seat to his own comfort and safety requirement in any case!


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 19:57 
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Mr Chirpy wrote:
Another reason is simply because of visibility. I thought that the whole point of glass in the car was due to this. If you think about it, as a driver you use all of the transparent parts of your car to aid visibility at some point.


Not true. In my car there are 3 rear headrests, factory fitted. They obscure about 20% of the visible glass. Anything put there will not be visible to the driver. It is also where dealers tend to put their stickers.
If you look at a modern car you may well see dealer stickers, tax disc holder, service reminder sticker, car alarm sticker, keycode radio sticker. All on the glass.

If it were a safety issue you would not have the tax disk in the window would you.

Mr Chirpy wrote:
I also wondered about the construction of the window sticker in question. Why can't you just put any sort of sticker on your motocycle helmet??? Because certain chemicals can destory the protective surface of the helmet.

Not true, you can buy helmet stickers. The adhesive used does not affect the finnish or integrity of the plastic. BSI and ACU stickers are also put on helmets.

Mr Chirpy wrote:
I am sure you will agree

patronising....a bit like "with all due respect"...

Answers good enough for ya...mr Troll

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 01:48 
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Gizmo wrote:
Mr Chirpy wrote:
Another reason is simply because of visibility. I thought that the whole point of glass in the car was due to this. If you think about it, as a driver you use all of the transparent parts of your car to aid visibility at some point.


Not true. In my car there are 3 rear headrests, factory fitted. They obscure about 20% of the visible glass. Anything put there will not be visible to the driver. It is also where dealers tend to put their stickers.
If you look at a modern car you may well see dealer stickers, tax disc holder, service reminder sticker, car alarm sticker, keycode radio sticker. All on the glass.

If it were a safety issue you would not have the tax disk in the window would you.

Mr Chirpy wrote:
I also wondered about the construction of the window sticker in question. Why can't you just put any sort of sticker on your motocycle helmet??? Because certain chemicals can destory the protective surface of the helmet.

Not true, you can buy helmet stickers. The adhesive used does not affect the finnish or integrity of the plastic. BSI and ACU stickers are also put on helmets.

Mr Chirpy wrote:
I am sure you will agree

patronising....a bit like "with all due respect"...

Answers good enough for ya...mr Troll


Anything obscuring 20% of the visible glass is surely a potential design fault?? Its funny you mention all of these supposed stickers, because in my car I have one, the tax disc one. The car alarm and keycode stickers are transparent with very small black lettering.

Your answers are nothing that I don't already know about, so they aren't really good enough no mr Jizmo.


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