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Which would you respect more?
The person that let you out of a difficult junction. 76%  76%  [ 13 ]
The person that was driving near the limits of their car/themselves. 6%  6%  [ 1 ]
Both. 12%  12%  [ 2 ]
Neither. 6%  6%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 17
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 13:52 
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Pratnership wrote:
toltec wrote:

Good example is MFL's reply. Junking it without even bothering to give reason or discuss.


I am surprised that anyone who contributes to this forum needs to have the reasons explained to them as to why the poll has a leading question and is irrelevant and should be junked. Surely if you have an interest in driving, the regulations that affect it and the politics involved you would have come across loaded polls? This is a classical example.

You are asking respondents to give a preference between someone who is "at the limits of car and/or driver" on a public road (and who would probably be charged with dangerous driving or similar) and someone who does a very courteous thing by letting you in to a more major road (notwithstanding that this may be a silly and even dangerous action). The two scenarios are quite different and would only indicate that people's preference would be for the superficially safe and pleasant over the perceived dangerous and offensive. The next step is to pontificate that everyone should behave like the former even though an excess of politeness would lead to total chaos.

Let me give you an example from outside the theme of motoring. Which would you respect more: the Chav who guzzles a couple of bottles of cheap plonk but manages to walk and talk without hitting anyone or throwing up or the wine "expert" who lectures about the soil, growing conditions, hint of sweaty saddles with a blackberry finish? (Don't laugh - I've heard this sort of description too many times!)

This is not about speed or Jagworth Bonningtons but about being misleading and irrelevant.

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If you cannot work out the wine question - its neither of them. Wine is for drinking and enjoying not for pontificating about nor reaching oblivion no matter if you are well behaved.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 14:10 
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Of course, but you can't have more respect for both (or neither); that word is what throws me. Had you left it out it would have made sense.


Slightly wrong wording perhaps, but surely obvious enough for those taking part? Most people on here are not idiots.

Quote:
Let me give you an example from outside the theme of motoring. Which would you respect more: the Chav who guzzles a couple of bottles of cheap plonk but manages to walk and talk without hitting anyone or throwing up or the wine "expert" who lectures about the soil, growing conditions, hint of sweaty saddles with a blackberry finish?


First off, you have it totally wrong. You are giving sterotypes of one of the examples (chav - generally disliked) and describing the other as 'expert'. Already that makes your comparision wrong.

Second, I daresay that some would actually give that more respect. Very little in comparision to the other, but some still would (perhaps someone who thinks wine drinking, and in particular wine experts, are 'toffs').

Perhaps I should have said which action would have gotten more respect.

In some respects, it is loaded. I fully expect the answer to be the obvious. however, that's because I am assuming that most people on here are reasonable, courteous drivers. So if it's considered to be loaded when I expect most people on here to be sensible, then yes. Otherwise, no.

There are some which think pushing the car to the limit and driving fast is the be all and end all. It's to those few I would like this poll to show otherwise. Also, I found myself assuming the above, and I thought I had best put that to the test. So the poll was for my confirmation also.

I said it was light hearted, and to prove a point. It's not making out speeding is bad, so I can't fathom the problem you have with it is. It's not like it's going to end up in the daily mail. :lol:

I would have appriciated it if you would have said from the start, rather than just saying it's pointless based on your own opinion which is, in my own, very far off the mark.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 16:44 
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Pratnership wrote:
Quote:
Of course, but you can't have more respect for both (or neither); that word is what throws me. Had you left it out it would have made sense.


Slightly wrong wording perhaps, but surely obvious enough for those taking part? Most people on here are not idiots.

Agreed. Like I said, it was only point of logic (which I wasn't taking it too seriously, hence the winky :wink: )


I can understand why someone would, in a particular circumstance choose, the 'near the limit' option (competition), but I can't understand who would choose "both" - could that voter please explain their answer?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 17:49 
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Steve wrote:
Pratnership wrote:
You can have respect for both actions, or neither of them.

Of course, but you can't have more respect for both (or neither); that word is what throws me. Had you left it out it would have made sense.

Which do you like more: apples or oranges, or both? :?


Four possible answers, all equally valid:-
John likes apples more than oranges
Jill likes oranges more than apples
Jack likes apples and oranges equally
Janice doesn't like apples and doesn't like oranges

Quote:
Granted I'm probably being pedantic,


N0. You are being deliberately obtuse in an attempt to upset someone with whom you disagree. And not for the first time.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 18:15 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
N0. You are being deliberately obtuse in an attempt to upset someone with whom you disagree. And not for the first time.


Whoa! I'd put down those pebbles there if I were you, wouldn't want any windows getting broken.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 18:19 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
... all equally valid:-

Jack likes apples and oranges equally
Janice doesn't like apples and doesn't like oranges

Please explain how these two are valid, or even suitable, responses to the question "which do you like more?"

dcbwhaley wrote:
N0. You are being deliberately obtuse in an attempt to upset someone with whom you disagree. And not for the first time.

How on can pointing out a logical flaw (with smiley, you know the wink you didn't quote) upset someone? What good would upsetting someone do me?
Again I think you're perceiving something that just isn't there.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 18:45 
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Steve wrote:
dcbwhaley wrote:
... all equally valid:-

Jack likes apples and oranges equally
Janice doesn't like apples and doesn't like oranges

Please explain how these two are valid, or even suitable, responses to the question "which do you like more?"


Let me try another way. If Jack is 1.75 meters tall and Jill is 175cm tall what is the valid and suitable response to the question "Who is more tall, Jack or Jill?"?

Quote:
What good would upsetting someone do me?

Who but Jeeves can fully understand the psychology of the individual?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 18:53 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Steve wrote:
dcbwhaley wrote:
... all equally valid:-

Jack likes apples and oranges equally
Janice doesn't like apples and doesn't like oranges

Please explain how these two are valid, or even suitable, responses to the question "which do you like more?"


Let me try another way.

Let's not!
Let's instead answer the question as stated and within the context of the original one (where A isn't essentially identical to B, be it with fruit or driving styles).
Do you think you can explain how your two other responses are valid or suitable, or not?

dcbwhaley wrote:
Who but Jeeves can fully understand the psychology of the individual?

Do you want to explain how that suitably addresses my two questions to you?

I'm an engineer, hence my inherent lack of social skills prevents me from being able to understand anyone, let alone psychologically manipulate them :D

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 19:19 
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Well P, you've certainly got people talking .... ;-)

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 20:47 
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x

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Last edited by dcbwhaley on Thu Jun 25, 2009 20:49, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 20:48 
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Steve wrote:
dcbwhaley wrote:
... all equally valid:-

Jack likes apples and oranges equally
Janice doesn't like apples and doesn't like oranges

Please explain how these two are valid, or even suitable, responses to the question "which do you like more?"

Let me try another way.
Let's not!


If you are not prepared to explore other ways of stating the question as a method of determining the validity of the answers offered then there is no point in continuing the dialogue.


Quote:
dcbwhaley wrote:
Who but Jeeves can fully understand the psychology of the individual?

Do you want to explain how that suitably addresses my two questions to you?


No

Quote:
I'm an engineer, hence my inherent lack of social skills prevents me from being able to understand anyone, let alone psychologically manipulate them :D


It is self evident from your form of "argument" that you are incapable of understanding anyone. The fact that you are an engineer is alarming as one relies on engineers to make sensible decisions based on rational arguments.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 21:35 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
If you are not prepared to explore other ways of stating the question as a method of determining the validity of the answers offered then there is no point in continuing the dialogue.

I am prepared; the problem is you've decided to chance the conditions to something irrelevant: you're trying to substitute the difference of "apples and oranges" with the difference of "1.75 meters and 175cm" !

A chance to redeem yourself: please explain (at least to everyone else) why your substitution in this case is a means for a valid argument. Perhaps you can continue this with someone who 'gets it'.

If you are not prepared to explore the direct way of determining the validity of the answers offered then there is no point in you continuing the dialogue.

dcbwhaley wrote:
It is self evident from your form of "argument" that you are incapable of understanding anyone. The fact that you are an engineer is alarming as one relies on engineers to make sensible decisions based on rational arguments.

Please do show and explain to the reader how you deduce my argument in this case to be irrational.


Which do you like more out of A and B?
"both" :lol:

That wasn't a dig at you Pratnership (you've already satisfied me [why others don't see that I don't know]), rather I'm wondering just how far others will go to defend this absurdly illogical argument and I'm happy to continue!

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 21:43 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Let me try another way. If Jack is 1.75 meters tall and Jill is 175cm tall what is the valid and suitable response to the question "Who is more tall, Jack or Jill?"?


That depends how big the meter is. If the meter is one metre high then they're both the same height.

I'll get my coat....


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 21:43 
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Steve. Do you think that my argument is "very persuasive" or "extremely persuasive"?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 22:20 
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Well look at this: I'm answering your questions even though you are outright dismissing mine to you - is it right that I should bother?

dcbwhaley wrote:
Steve. Do you think that my argument is "very persuasive" or "extremely persuasive"?


Is "which is true: A or B?" equivalent to "which is more, A or B?"

The first example is of absolutes (incomplete absolutes because there are other options) and both can be false in for favour of other solutions like "not persuasive in the slightest", as well as both true if some descriptors are subsets of others ("very" a subset of "extremely").

The second is relative where the answer can only be A, B, or perhaps A&B equally, but the subsets cannot apply.


Hence your new analogy can indeed have the three or four outcomes (A, B, "neither" - and "both" if assuming subsets); either way the logic cannot be applied to the original question because the logical conditions are different.
Do you agree that difference is enough to invalidate your analogy? If not then why not?
It seems we've already blown your earlier analogy out of the water!

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 09:18 
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Ehhh it's all turned into some big logic argument...

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 15:04 
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That'll learn ya! :)


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 15:54 
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Next time (if there is one) I think I'll adopt the ostrich technique.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 16:02 
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Works for me .... ;-)

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 19:20 
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Pratnership wrote:
Ehhh it's all turned into some big logic argument...


Yeah. Silly isn't it? But every effort to debate with Steve seems to get bogged down in a mass of irrelevant detail. But there is an obvious solution.

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