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Do you indicate when returning to lane on motorways?
Always 39%  39%  [ 11 ]
Never 4%  4%  [ 1 ]
Depends on density of traffic 57%  57%  [ 16 ]
Always stay in the outside lane 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Never Overtake 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 28
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 22:09 
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If you don't have time to indicate and make the overtake manoeuvre, you shouldn't attempt it at all.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 22:34 
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Homer wrote:
...if you only indicate when needed it forces you to look and think more than automatically indicating would.

Good idea... looking and thinking!

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 07:15 
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graball wrote:
That's all very well if you have a very fast car and have taken the time to check your mirrors but you would n't believe how many times I've been about to overtake a fairly slow car behind an even slower car when about to reach a long clear straight and the "person" in front has pulled out almost on my front bumper just after I have started to overtake, without indicating and I would guess without checking mirrors. If you at least indicate it gives the person behind you warning of what you are about to do and he can wait for you and adjust his manouvere accordingly.


This is the point at which you (car 3) should be keeping an eye on the second car's road position, observe where the driver's eyes are pointing (look in their rear view mirror), look out for the driver's head turning to the right to check their wing mirror before pulling out, look for them starting to move out to the white line, close up the gap between them and the first car etc etc.

As I've said before my car accelerates pretty rapidly in the mid range so if I am car 2 in that scenario I'll be gone and past car 1 before it causes car 3 any problem.

Plus I always observe mirrors etc and communicate my intentions by means of road positioning, moving out to the centre etc to make it quite clear to the following driver that I intend to overtake at the first opportunity.

Quote:
Whoever told you that stupid quote needs to get out more.


Actually it was a driving instructor. A particularly good one I might add.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 07:51 
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so you are going through all that, why not just indicate, it takes micro seconds and you never know what acceleration the car behind has (you say, you sometimes drive a clapped out Mondeo, what happens in that when you don't indicate?) and if he has started to make his move , YOU are in the wrong by pulling out into the side of him.
As for driving instructor, if he pulled out in front of me without indicating and caused me to brake when I was about to overtake, because of his stupidity, I would make it known what I thought of his driving in no uncertain terms.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 23:17 
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graball wrote:
so you are going through all that, why not just indicate, it takes micro seconds and you never know what acceleration the car behind has (you say, you sometimes drive a clapped out Mondeo, what happens in that when you don't indicate?) and if he has started to make his move , YOU are in the wrong by pulling out into the side of him.
As for driving instructor, if he pulled out in front of me without indicating and caused me to brake when I was about to overtake, because of his stupidity, I would make it known what I thought of his driving in no uncertain terms.

Although in principal I agree that indication is ideal.
In the real world people are not perfect and the reality is that drivers/ riders are not always indicating, understanding why and when and IF it makes a 'real' difference in accidents and underastanding on the road is a very interesting area.
[For example: lets day that it made, after research, that it made NO difference at all (to the extreme) to accidents or any driving need, it *could* be developed that in fact having no indicators could prove they are un-necessary, and in fact people looked more at the driver and gave way more often. There in fact seemed to be an advantage to loosing the indicators.]
So all things that are 'taken for granted' can sometimes be fundamentally questioned, is something truly necessary, does it do it's job the right way, is it fit for purpose ? Research can lead to a whole new process or verify that the existing policies can be right and then become reinforced. So, understanding better what people see on the road, in reality, is a first step in some of that research. Sometimes people want to discuss principal's of legality, simply learn a little more, or find out why, things are the way they observe on the road, and so on ... as I am sure you recognise.

However, when experienced drivers can see no need to indicate due to predicitable behaviour by them and others is it legally wrong not to indicate - yes - it is bad driving, questionable as has it caused any problem or confusion, unlikely, so the 'real world' condition MAY be perfectly acceptable and possibly even 'correct' albeit it wrong legally.
Now your response seems to imply that indicating might prevent an accident - it could and you are right to state that indicating may help, but whether it is the only reason to prevent an accident is questionable as overtaking is involved, if someone pulls out on you, others things have already gone wrong and any indication MAY not make any difference in stopping them not 'seeing' you. You need to allow for them 'not seeing you ' and already have planned for it (escape route). To then 'show your displeasure' also is 'wrong' in the first place you should be ready and in the second these 'exchanges' can escalate, and leave you in a very dangerous position. Far better to allow for their possible error and when it happens you are ready - toot your horn and your escape route to the best of your ability, stay calm and make yourself safe. if you have already planned ahead, you do not need to then get angry. Most anger comes from fear / been scared. By staying on top of the situation you take away the fear as a plan / forthought exists that can defuse and your better control helps make situations safe again for everyone. Courtesy enables them to go ahead or allow you to proceed safely. The more people are encouraged and guided to 'do the right thing' they and 'us all' can be ready and all forgive those errors calmly and proceed safely.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 00:03 
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Indicators where designed to do just that, "indicate " the other drivers intention. I remember the days when cars didn't all have indicators, some had a little yellow arm that swung out from the body,the earlier driving tests made sure that you knew how to and did, indicate turning right, left and slowing to a halt by means of arm signals. To do away with indicators and the use of them , in my mind is to do away with an important safety device that every car NEEDS. In my experience, it isn't the better, more experienced drivers that don't indicate but the less experienced drivers who seem to have "too many other things to do" and this often goes along with lack of mirror usage.

I have witnessed far too many "close shaves" when people have pulled out from a line of traffic without indicating...often without using a mirror too, indicating is such a simple thing to do and yet can save so much frustration, it is irresponsible not to do it.

By removing the need for indicators you are putting guesswork or mind reading as another "job" that a driver has to do. If you are going to remove the need for indicators from cars, you might as well remove brake lights too and then have drivers guessing if the guy in front is slowing down or not.

In my mind the more indication a driver can pick up about another drivers intention , the easier it makes life and in turn makes for safer roads. I'm sure when we went from daylight only visual indicators (i.e arm signals) to light indicators, it made driving more pleasuarable and safer for everyone. Most things developed over the years such as indicators, brake lights, tail lights must have been developed because there was a need in the first place.
I'm sure that if cars were to now be produced without these valuable safety aids we would have far more crashes, whether low speed on roundabouts or high speed on motorways.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 01:50 
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graball wrote:
Indicators where designed to do just that, "indicate " the other drivers intention. I remember the days when cars didn't all have indicators, some had a little yellow arm that swung out from the body,the earlier driving tests made sure that you knew how to and did, indicate turning right, left and slowing to a halt by means of arm signals. To do away with indicators and the use of them , in my mind is to do away with an important safety device that every car NEEDS.

I am NOT for one minute suggesting that we should remove indicators - it was an example of questioning 'core function' requirement, and how that MIGHT proceed. I think they should be used and function properly.

graball wrote:
In my experience, it isn't the better, more experienced drivers that don't indicate but the less experienced drivers who seem to have "too many other things to do" and this often goes along with lack of mirror usage.

I think there is lack of indicator usage throughout the entire road network and across the board of abilities. However when drivers/riders choose to and not to indicate will tend to tell you of their ability, skill and experience. I think the less experienced as you do indicate less at times when it is very necessary and essential to do so. Less experienced drivers have a hard time learning about anything other than 'speed matters' policies, and have precious little guidance or encouragement in all the rest of the driving skills - very, very sadly. What chance have they to improve and learn!

graball wrote:
I have witnessed far too many "close shaves" when people have pulled out from a line of traffic without indicating...often without using a mirror too, indicating is such a simple thing to do and yet can save so much frustration, it is irresponsible not to do it.

Agreed.

graball wrote:
I'm sure that if cars were to now be produced without these valuable safety aids we would have far more crashes, whether low speed on roundabouts or high speed on motorways.
As a hypothetical scenario it would be fascinating to see how many remember the arm signals and see if people were able to 'function' and interact appropriately. Many exercises of responsibility, often shown how very capable people are, when given danger and the need to know. Spacial awareness is something we become familiar with from an extremely young age.
To re-assure you - I DO think we absolutely need indicators and they need to be used. Sorry for the confusion.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 08:16 
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graball wrote:
you say, you sometimes drive a clapped out Mondeo, what happens in that when you don't indicate?


Hardly "clapped out"... it was a 2 litre petrol and would shift when pushed. Although it didn't have anything like the mid-range acceleration of the A4.

What happened (past tense as I've now sold it) in the Mondeo...

I approach slowpoke.

I move out to the centre of the road to get a better look, knowing that there's an overtaking opportunity coming up. By doing this I'm also communicating my intention to overtake to anyone that might be following me.

If the overtake is clear then I floor it and go - AFTER checking the mirrors, over the shoulder etc to make sure that car 3 in the queue (or even someone further back if it's a long procession) hasn't decided to do a multiple overtake.

And when I'm driving the A4? Exactly the same, except the "floor it and go" stage is considerably quicker... so even if someone 5 cars back were to pull out I'd be past slowpoke and tucked back in before they reached the point where I was.

Quote:
and if he has started to make his move , YOU are in the wrong by pulling out into the side of him.


Hence the "lifesaver glance" above, look out and over your shoulder before you start to pull out.

The biggest problem I find with indicating to overtake on SC is that 9 times out of 10 the person in front of you puts their foot down when they see your indicator come on. Hence not indicating to overtake on SC.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 08:43 
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Quote:
The biggest problem I find with indicating to overtake on SC is that 9 times out of 10 the person in front of you puts their foot down when they see your indicator come on. Hence not indicating to overtake on SC.


Well you will always find morons on the road, no matter where you go! I would guess that your overtaking "stance" ought to give him a clue without the subtle indicator but if it works for you, fine but I would be very narked if I was coming up behind you doing about 120MPH in my Zonda and you shot out in front of me without indicating.....;-)

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 23:54 
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Having had the privilege of having a UK License for over 40 years --I look at both graball and squirell in the same light . Are both that stupid .?????

And is it a case that UK roads are full of the same sort of drivers -OR are they both schoolkids full of what I pick up from my dog on hiS walks ----CRAP -THAT BROWN SMELLY STUFF .

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:36 
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I find some attitudes to indicating on here quite remarkable.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:27 
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Pratnership wrote:
I find some attitudes to indicating on here quite remarkable.

You can't say something like that without expecting a response like "How so"? ;)

I suspect the distribution of these responses is no different to that of the general driving population, which should make one think...

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:42 
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Not indicating, in short. I think the circumstance is rare when you don't need to. But to deliberatly not indicate when you overtake because they speed up '9 times out of 10', well enough said.

Still, that's not exactly a problem anymore. :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 17:22 
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Quote:
Having had the privilege of having a UK License for over 40 years --I look at both graball and squirell in the same light . Are both that stupid .?????


Only just read this post....can you expand on that?

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 18:56 
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Botach,

I appreciate that you have held a UK license for 40 plus years and that is much longer than my mere 36 years of holding a uk license, whereby I have driven approximately 1 million miles over all sorts of terrain, in all sorts of vehicles, over 90% of which would have been single carriageway.

I also overtake at any opportunity, where I feel it is safe and neccessary to do so in order to make my journey times as short as legally possible and have never had any serious incidents arising from my overtaking.

I am, however, a little perplexed by what in my posts, gives you the impression that what I am doing is little better than a stupid person or a schoolkid?

I am always striving to improve and learn from someone better and more experienced than myself, so would be only too pleased if you could enlighten me.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 19:28 
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graball wrote:
I am, however, a little perplexed by what in my posts, gives you the impression that what I am doing is little better than a stupid person or a schoolkid?

From your example: doing 120mph when coming up behind another driver isn't what one would call predictable behaviour. The driver in front pulling out to overtake could reasonably have assumed a following driver to not catch, and not try to pass, at speeds 60mph above limit; heck he might not even see the approaching vehicle in his mirror at that kind of differential speed.
I grant your post may have been intended to be hypothetical only, but it can be read in a non-hypothetical way.



My take on this: hiding one's intention about committing a manoeuvre is inherently unpredictable behaviour.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 20:23 
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I would have thought that the smiley face would have given that away as not being serious, perhaps I am in the minority on this site in having a sense of humour.... ;-)

Quote:

My take on this: hiding one's intention about committing a manoeuvre is inherently unpredictable behaviour.



I agree totally which is why I questioned Squirrel's "expert drivers" advice about saying that if you have time to indicate, you don't have time to make the manouvre.....I would never dream of overtaking without indicating even if there were no other cars about apart from myself and the car in front but I still can't understand Botach's attack on me.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 20:26 
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Oh by the way Steve, in case you haven't reakised it by now....as well as not driving at 120MPH, I also don't have a Zonda ....;-)

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 21:04 
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graball wrote:
Oh by the way Steve, in case you haven't reakised it by now....as well as not driving at 120MPH, I also don't have a Zonda ....;-)

I did guess as much, but I know how things get misinterpreted and misrepresented (especially on other forums with an anti Safe Speed contingent) - I'm just making sure it won't be.

Having a Zonda would cause me put plant smileys on any posts mentioning it :D

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 01:48 
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Of course if Graball was joking about the 120mph (which I did think he was & he was :) ) then if he then winks at stating that he doesn't - is that not a double negative and so in which case - you are saying that you do have a Zonda ! In which case - any time you would like me to drop by ... :lol:
... and then there is the wonderful Members Badge you can have for a mere £45 / yr - probably only half a tank of fuel ! :)

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