Safe Speed Forums

The campaign for genuine road safety
It is currently Sat May 26, 2018 03:27

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 24 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

What % of ea journey ? & How often?
80-90% 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
70-80% 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
60-70% 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
50-60% 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
40-50% 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
30-40% 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
20-30% 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
10-20% 6%  6%  [ 1 ]
2-10% 17%  17%  [ 3 ]
1% 17%  17%  [ 3 ]
0% 11%  11%  [ 2 ]
Other % please state... 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Every trip - 100% 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Almost every trip approx 80-99% 6%  6%  [ 1 ]
Frequently approx 65-79% 6%  6%  [ 1 ]
Occasionally approx 45-64% 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Only on occasion trips approx 25-44% 11%  11%  [ 2 ]
Seldom 10-24% 11%  11%  [ 2 ]
Extremely rare 2-9% 6%  6%  [ 1 ]
neigh never 1% 6%  6%  [ 1 ]
Never 6%  6%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 18
Author Message
 Post subject: Daydreaming & Auto-pilot
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 23:42 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 02:17
Posts: 7347
Location: Highlands
I have been discussion going into 'daydreams' or 'autopilot' with various people but especially a road safety chap.
Before saying more I want to ask people to do this pole before discussing ! :)
What percentage of your travel might you go into a daydream & autopilot (by % rate of each journey travelled) ?
and then ...
How often does this total combination occur (by %) of your journeys?
This Poll is per % rate, and then per % of each journey or not at all.

This topic thread is here :

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:01 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 13:54
Posts: 1711
Location: NW Kent
This may be impossible to answer, when you are in auto-pilot you are unaware of it. A case of the observer changing what is observed.

I certainly have journeys where I do not remember sections, but if that means I was day dreaming or simply nothing of note occurred is hard to say. There are times when I try to attain a state of 'no mind', usually when in bad traffic jams, I find this allows me remain in a calm state untroubled by the lack of progress and yet still alert to what is happening around me.

_________________
Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:15 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 02:17
Posts: 7347
Location: Highlands
Do people agree with the % options ? Would you rather see a certain % ?

I'll wait for a few more contributions before mentioning what someone relayed to me.

So far it's around what I had estimated.

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:44 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2005 18:54
Posts: 4036
Location: Cumbria
Oooo, a minefield!!! As Toltec says, how would you know? Moreover, just because you can't remember part of a journey doesn't mean you weren't paying attention at the time. I've a feeling that the human brain is very good at paying "enough" attention to the job in hand but then "deleting" the information if no longer required. A good example is when doing exams. Most people are concentrating very hard when actually DOING an exam, but might well forget a lot of what they did within a short time of finishing.

I also don't really understand the question when it comes to a "percentage" because I don't really know how you quantify "attention" or, indeed, the percentage it has to fall below before it's classed as "daydreaming". Another example: I'm pretty cr4p at playing the piano. Mrs M. tends to laugh when I do try hard to play a piece, because my mouth hangs open and I sometimes dribble a bit... (yeah, not pretty, I'm not proud of it)! Now, based on the fact that when I'm driving, I'm not dribbling, I can only assume that I never give as much attention to driving as I do to playing the piano!

Also, on a long motorway drive, I enjoy listening to Radio 4. Especially if there's a good afternoon play on. As I'm clearly devoting some mental capacity to the play, I'm clearly not devoting 100% of my attention to the driving task, so does that count as daydreaming?

Sometimes, when I'm "trying hard" (driving) I will exclude other thoughts to a greater or lesser extent. By the time the car starts to slide, I can be pretty sure that I'm thinking of very little else, but, on a public road, that's really not very often! I simply don't believe these people who say "I give 100% of my concentration to driving, 100% of the time" because if they did, what would happen when something unexpected happened? When, for example, I'm trucking down the motorway and i see a load of brake lights go on ahead, I'll devote a bit more concentration to what's about to happen. What would the person who (claims to be giving) 100% concentration do in that situation? Stop breathing and loose bladder and bowel control?

I'm sure the human brain is more complex than that.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:54 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 02:17
Posts: 7347
Location: Highlands
Toltec wrote:
This may be impossible to answer, when you are in auto-pilot you are unaware of it. A case of the observer changing what is observed.

I certainly have journeys where I do not remember sections, but if that means I was day dreaming or simply nothing of note occurred is hard to say. There are times when I try to attain a state of 'no mind', usually when in bad traffic jams, I find this allows me remain in a calm state untroubled by the lack of progress and yet still alert to what is happening around me.
From what I can tell it's when people come out of an auto-pilot/daydream that is when awareness returns.
I do think that awareness stays more with 'auto-pilot' due to Lizard brain (links 1 [url]2[/url] 3 or perhaps "cognitive recoding" (plus the Links 1 2 3 4, the 7 +or-2 on page 367 5 again 7 +or - 2 ) & 6

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:11 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 02:17
Posts: 7347
Location: Highlands
Mole I think that too hits on a number of the points precisely that I want to discuss.
If we are learning automated responses, are we paying any less attention, even if we might not be 100% aware at that moment....

If we are concentration we can still make mistakes ... were we somehow mis-informed ... (see but missed important facts)

If we are thinking about something else, we can still be concentrating albeit to a lower percentage but will be right back on top of events if and when required, and when needed.

So when does lack of concentration / awareness / anticipation become so bad (& how) that it results in a failure to respond that leads to a crash.
The reporting use of stats seems to now include 'failure to respond or react properly', but that isn't a fore-runner to an incident, it's the aftermath of a previous failure to anticipate or drive appropriately in the first place.

If we learn in chunks and then those chunks are removed, (modern slow driving, where we never achieve new learned behaviours), then we have just deprived many of the skills and experiences that will keep them safer.

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:24 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 02:17
Posts: 7347
Location: Highlands
Mole wrote:
I also don't really understand the question when it comes to a "percentage" because I don't really know how you quantify "attention" or, indeed, the percentage it has to fall below before it's classed as "daydreaming". ...
It is trying to open up this vast area and understand it better. I felt that if we can think of the entire journey and all the sections of it etc then we know that we didn't enter any 'day-dream' or total auto-pilot stage.

Might it be better to ask 'how many times' / journey ?
It is exactly 'how do we' ID the day-dream or the auto-pilot that I think is important to understanding this whole area...

Momentary thoughts within a journey may well not stop our perception of the road ahead or if they do then the lizard brain will bring our attention back as soon as anything changes. Is that classed (& who by anyway?) day-dreaming? Does 'day-dreaming' always result in kick starting auto-pilot?
I may get 'thought's' while driving, but never these, 'whole sections' that I hear others speak of where they just don't remember the journey.
My attention is on processing and considering events all around me, but I know some thoughts I have do not 'distract'.
I think a 'momentary thought' is not a day-dream which for me is when someone is in 'auto-pilot' as they are no longer thinking ahead, but about something else to a point that driving is not in the fore-front of the mind. Attention is not on the job at hand. However if this is 'common' when does it become 'dangerous' and how can we bring people back to paying attention ... or does that become 'auto-pilot' and so how doe we then get out of that and back on the road ... VAS helps for sure as it's sudden and a great reminder.

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:33 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 16:34
Posts: 4923
Location: Somewhere between a rock and a hard place
This is interesting because just recently I had this pointed out to me by my advanced driving friend at work. I was taking him somewhere, to see a patient, and was quizzing him about advanced driving.

Now it may have been that because he was with me and we were talking, (and I was listening intently to him at this point), that he caught me out. He suddenly said “for instance what was the very last sign you just went past?”

I didn’t know and couldn’t tell him :oops: (I was thinking a warning triangle or blue Hosp sign or something). He said it was the bollard in the centre of the road telling you to keep left :stupidme:

But, ordinarily, on my own, I am generally always very observant of these and all other things. So I’m not sure if I was on auto pilot or simply distracted in an area I know so well I could ‘afford’ to give more than normal attention to our conversation.

Maybe things like these can almost be blanked out because they are so obvious that you use your brain for the more constructive or informative signage to an experienced driver, like has that pedestrian seen me etc.

_________________
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 19:15 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 02:17
Posts: 7347
Location: Highlands
For sure we miss some road features when when our attention is drawn to other necessary points.
It is a bit of a tease to ask someone when you know they missed the last feature ... he probably knew it was when you glanced at him, or were looking in your mirror, etc. It does have a valid purpose as it asks us, are we really paying full attention or getting into a habit of 'auto-pilot' or sub-conscious autonomous actions.
You might have seen it and then not acted, as no action was required, as you were already 'safe' and obeying that feature.

Just because you had not been fully aware of it does not mean that you were not fully aware of it.
The links to the '7 + - 2' are most interesting. So if what we learn becomes 'blocks of habit' we will only become more 'involved' when things go wrong. The other day a gear change didn't catch - so I had to pay that momentarily more attention.
When I travel so much is considered, assessed, risk managed and then passed by safely.

It maybe that perhaps courtesy and an encouragement to consider more and so implement more, may help a wider travelling public to engage far better than current levels.

Edited to add : perhaps the reason you recall the road sign is that that is what was there and what your more conscious brain considered more important! :)

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 19:42 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 16:34
Posts: 4923
Location: Somewhere between a rock and a hard place
Yes Claire, I didn't do anything wrong or illegal. I wasn't on the wrong side of the road of course; I would have had to overtake the plastic bollard on my right telling me to keep left, which would have been ridiculous for someone not to obey other than a nut. I guess because I know the road and area and absolutely everything in the area so well my brain pays more attention to what's new or different?

If I posted a picture of it, it's blindingly obvious it's there. I am not an Advanced Driver so I dont know if they take everything in all of the time even when they know what is where all of the time? I'll ask him tomorrow. (And I'll test him next time we're out what we just pased when HE'S chatting about something) :twisted:

_________________
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 21:00 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 02:17
Posts: 7347
Location: Highlands
I am very self critical of my own driving / riding, especially without a Paul about!
This way I am keeping myself on my toes and remind myself to 'be good' all the time. I don't care if the road is new, old nor 'weird new local road markings' the observance ought to be excellent all the time, along with analysis of everything around me, all the time. I am not perfect and I make little errors which I then assess how I missed that little something, but they are happily few and very far between! :)

'Basic' road furnishings are observed and noted in lower priority than direct or potential hazards. Clearly when in dense traffic the list of scanned items maybe less but no less important. An empty motorway still requires constant attention and car control and many decisions to ensure my safety and any others I come across. When on those empty roads though one can engage into a different 'attitude' and attention can be heightened.

I will go through environment or other thoughts before or as I prepare to travel. Perhaps all these things help my attention as it keeps me reminded of weather etc, conditions and so that adds to all considerations as I travel.
Perhaps those lists of consideration become learned behaviours too and so to some level auto-considered, than auto-responded to?

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 09:53 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 13:54
Posts: 1711
Location: NW Kent
An example of a different auto-pilot?

Have you ever set off from work meaning to head somewhere slightly off the route home then realised you have just driven home instead?

I have done this, or variations, several times; the odd thing is that I will remember the drive, but obviously forgot where I was supposed to be going and just let the auto-pilot take me to the usual destination.

_________________
Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 19:05 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 19:08
Posts: 3428
Big TOne wrote:
Now it may have been that because he was with me and we were talking, (and I was listening intently to him at this point), that he caught me out. He suddenly said “for instance what was the very last sign you just went past?”

I didn’t know and couldn’t tell him (I was thinking a warning triangle or blue Hosp sign or something). He said it was the bollard in the centre of the road telling you to keep left


Just because you didn't register it in your memory, doesn't mean you didn't observe it, you just didn't register it as it wasn't of significant importance to you. Had it been toppling into the road at the time you would have registered it.

Had you asked the same guy what colour top the little boy on the pavement was wearing, he probably wouldn't have been able to tell you, even though he probably saw him but because he wasn't about to run into the road, his brain didn't keep the information.

A lot of this observational one up manship is rubbish to my mind, I'm sure the human brain and eyes take in millions of small bits of information every second but only stores or reacts to either something that triggers a danger signal or if you specifically want to register it. The guy registered the bollard because he wanted to but may have missed something on the pavement or opposite carriageway that you stored in your mind.

to me the most important thing about driving is the zone of vision to focus on, which is obviously a range of distances ever changing. I see far too many people who seem to focus on a fixed point about 10-20 feet in front of their bumper and never roam beyond that point. A classic example is the number of times I will indicate and pull over to stop behind a line of parked cars only for people behind me to stop also, assuming in in a queue of standing vehicle, even though my indicators going.

i've even had it happen when my clutch burnt out and was stopped on the side of the road with hazard lights flashing. the number of people who almost stopped behind me, even though the road ahead was clear and straight was unbelievable.

_________________
My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 19:15 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 19:08
Posts: 3428
Toltec wrote:
An example of a different auto-pilot?

Have you ever set off from work meaning to head somewhere slightly off the route home then realised you have just driven home instead?

I have done this, or variations, several times; the odd thing is that I will remember the drive, but obviously forgot where I was supposed to be going and just let the auto-pilot take me to the usual destination.


I tend to do daft things like this when stuck in a slow moving queue of traffic, I often miss the turn I wanted because I wasn't concentrating fully, which to my mind suggests that driving at too slow a speed (like a long 20MPH road with very little traffic or pedestrians), with no stimulation, is more dangerous than driving at 60MPH on a rural road where your concentration level is far higher.

_________________
My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 23:34 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member

Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 23:26
Posts: 9238
Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK
No comment on recent trips, but I always remember my young days ,headinf off to work, and thinking that I'd not seen that/this bit of road. I'd done this triop that often that I'd forgotten passing bits of the road.

_________________
lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 23:44 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 23:09
Posts: 6731
Location: Stockport, Cheshire
Occasionally I find myself thinking "I don't remember driving that last half-mile", but I think the lizard brain kicks in and tends to keep you safe.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 00:05 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 02:17
Posts: 7347
Location: Highlands
OK all most interesting and approximately roughly what I expected from people who have a great interest in driving/riding. :)
The person with whom I spoke of came up with a theory that all drivers/riders spend 80% of their time in "daydream/auto-pilot". I was amazed. :o
We discussed this for some time and although he is still assessing his theory I am puzzled how he might come to this conclusion.
I think now it is to do with his commutes and how he felt that other people were in this daydream mode too.

I think perhaps 80% might spend around 15% of their time on a few trips in a day-dream/auto-pilot state but only where safe to do so or we would all be crashing more!

I fully expect to get back to him and told him that I'd ask on my forum. I am pleased that no one here thinks that they spend 80% of their time in this state ! :)

All sorts of road features, are likely to bring focus straight back into full driving/riding mode.

I see that someone has said that they do spend 80-99% of their time in this daydream/auto-pilot state which is curious. Is this regular routes or new one's. Perhaps you cna PM me if you are willing to chat about it.

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:50 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 19:08
Posts: 3428
I don't think you will ever know for sure how much of your brain is in daydream mode unless you link it up to medical brain scanning equipment. I personally don't believe we commit a majority proportion of our brains activity to driving a regular route. Obviously driving a non familiar route through a busy city is going to take half as much again of your concentration, but i believe that in normal everyday driving a large part of your brain is on standby and only kicks into the "driving mode" when something unusual happens, such as something runs in front of you or a flock of birds suddenly fly out of a hedge nearly hitting your windscreen. (this has happened to me on a few occassions)

_________________
My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 22:22 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member

Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 23:26
Posts: 9238
Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK
PeterE wrote:
Occasionally I find myself thinking "I don't remember driving that last half-mile", but I think the lizard brain kicks in and tends to keep you safe.

This was one of paul's ideas. After seeing it, I've often thought of it ,and agree that ,especially in the older drivers , it plays an increasing part in our driving.
Might be an idea for a poll , of how many drivers find their foot over the brake and ready to de clutch about half a second before they've even thought about it. Eyes have seen, brain recognised and sent message to feet, before realization kicks in . I've had a similar thing happen to me at work in my younger days as a ( then GPO Telephone bloke) . i'd gotten up pole, fastened my belt and ladder moved on a bit of( what was discovered to be) dog muck. I never remembered my hands gragging the steps on the pole, but is saved me from dangling on the belt.

_________________
lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 23:57 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 13:54
Posts: 1711
Location: NW Kent
botach wrote:
PeterE wrote:
Occasionally I find myself thinking "I don't remember driving that last half-mile", but I think the lizard brain kicks in and tends to keep you safe.

This was one of paul's ideas. After seeing it, I've often thought of it ,and agree that ,especially in the older drivers , it plays an increasing part in our driving.
Might be an idea for a poll , of how many drivers find their foot over the brake and ready to de clutch about half a second before they've even thought about it. Eyes have seen, brain recognised and sent message to feet, before realization kicks in . I've had a similar thing happen to me at work in my younger days as a ( then GPO Telephone bloke) . i'd gotten up pole, fastened my belt and ladder moved on a bit of( what was discovered to be) dog muck. I never remembered my hands gragging the steps on the pole, but is saved me from dangling on the belt.


Very occasionally I find that I have started to react to something, then cancelled or amended that reaction before finally realising what it was I was reacting to. The only way I can think of this is that there are several layers of processing, some movement or unexpected change triggers a fast response, in the time it takes for the physical movement to occur there has been enough time to make further observations in order to determine the required degree of intervention, a little after this you become consciously aware of the situation. I also think that when you make observations you are constantly building a set hazard responses, you see a car waiting at a junction and there is a possibility it may pull out, if there is any movement from that direction in your peripheral vision while looking at something else you begin to respond without having to think about it.

When you are driving consciously you are constantly teaching yourself how to deal with new scenarios, it is like you are developing a mental shorthand so you can scan the picture and develop responses to a greater degree of complexity within the same time frame. You learn to see more subtle and varied cues without having to consciously process through a list.

Over the past few days I have tried to make a point of noticing and remembering, at intervals, if I was aware of driving the last section of road. Think of it as metadata for the drive, I might not really remember the drive because nothing interesting occurred, but I do remember having checked that I remembered the last five minutes. What I think happens is that I am conscious of what I am doing while driving, however I am not trying to learn anything new as nothing interesting happens so it is all occurring in short term memory. Conversely I could give you a long description of what happened during a 3 - 4 second period on a specific section of a sprint circuit I drove several years ago.

_________________
Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 24 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.267s | 14 Queries | GZIP : Off ]