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What is the minimum distance at which you would pull in to Lane 1 to overtake a truck on the motorway?
Poll ended at Tue Sep 21, 2004 16:59

100 yards (15 second gap)	13%	[ 4 ]
100 yards (15 second gap)	13%	[ 4 ]
200 yards (29 second gap)	13%	[ 4 ]
200 yards (29 second gap)	13%	[ 4 ]
300 yards (44 second gap)	6%	[ 2 ]
300 yards (44 second gap)	6%	[ 2 ]
400 yards (58 second gap)	9%	[ 3 ]
400 yards (58 second gap)	9%	[ 3 ]
600 yards (88 second gap)	0%	[ 0 ]
600 yards (88 second gap)	0%	[ 0 ]
800 yards (117 second gap)	0%	[ 0 ]
800 yards (117 second gap)	0%	[ 0 ]
I wouldn't - if he's in my sights I'm overtaking him	9%	[ 3 ]
I wouldn't - if he's in my sights I'm overtaking him	9%	[ 3 ]

Total votes : 32

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PeterE

Post subject: Middle Lane Hogging

Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 16:59

Friend of Safe Speed

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 23:09
Posts: 6735
Location: Stockport, Cheshire

You're driving in Lane 2 of a motorway at 70 mph. Ahead, there's a truck in Lane 1 doing 56 mph. You're gaining on him at a rate of 6.84 yards per second, which means that if you're 400 yards behind him you will overhaul him in about a minute.

There's a stream of cars behind doing 70 mph and maintaining a 2-second gap, and several faster vehicles in Lane 3.

What is the minimum distance at which you would pull in to Lane 1?

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

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PeterE

Post subject:

Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 19:57

Friend of Safe Speed

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 23:09
Posts: 6735
Location: Stockport, Cheshire

It's amazing that people have been saying they would pull into a 100-yard gap with a 14 mph speed differential.

Assuming you leave at least a 2-second gap when pulling in or out, is lane-weaving every 11 seconds really a sensible behaviour?

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Homer

Post subject:

Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 20:19

Member

Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 14:04
Posts: 2325
Location: The interweb

Voted 15 seconds but...

You have posed something of a trick question because one is not going to completely close on the vehicle in lane 1 before either moving back to lane 2 or slowing to maintain a decent gap. A 2 second gap at 56mph would take a fair chunk out of your 100 yards (over half my my quick and rough calculations).

That said, I could use a little more information.

What is in front of me?

If the road is clear then it is likely that some of the faster vehicles in lane 3 would be able to make use of any space I create to allow further overtaking. In such a case I would pull in with a smaller gap.

If there is something ahead of me then the question is will pulling in create a situation where I might not have a space to return to the middle lane, if so I would stay put in the interest of smooth progress. Yes a little selfish but better than moving over then pushing back in. Also it would be much less likely that one of the faster vehicles in lane 3 would make use of the space.

Conversely I will do my best make room for someone to move to the right as I believe people will be more likely to move to the left if they don't think they have to "protect" their lane.

Fifteen seconds is an awful long time, certainly enough for another driver to get annoyed (30 would be far too long). And if you can move over and help the traffic flow with minimal inconvenience to yourself then surely that can only be a good thing?

I still vote A, but modify it to 15 seconds before having to pull back out (or slow down).

(I started writing this before PeterE posted the above, I'm not slow I just got sidetracked - damn work).

Last edited by Homer on Sun Aug 22, 2004 20:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Homer

Post subject:

Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 20:31

Member

Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 14:04
Posts: 2325
Location: The interweb

PeterE wrote:

It's amazing that people have been saying they would pull into a 100-yard gap with a 14 mph speed differential.

What's 100 yards look like?

Most people will be going by the 15 seconds, and factoring in the safety buffer (on top of the 15 seconds), then answering the question.

That's what I did anyway.

Quote:

Assuming you leave at least a 2-second gap when pulling in or out, is lane-weaving every 11 seconds really a sensible behaviour?

Funnily enough I was going to say 10 seconds would be plenty until I realised the trick in your question.

11 seconds isn't too bad really on todays roads, I just sat and watched the second hand on my watch count 11 seconds and it's not quite lane -weaving (in my book). And it would be acceptable to leave less than 2 seconds when preparing to overtake providing you could be reasonably sure of the road ahead so you can add a couple more for that.

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PeterE

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 15:03

Friend of Safe Speed

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 23:09
Posts: 6735
Location: Stockport, Cheshire

PeterE wrote:

Assuming you leave at least a 2-second gap when pulling in or out, is lane-weaving every 11 seconds really a sensible behaviour?

Having given this further thought, it's more like 5 seconds than 11.

If you're travelling at 70 mph 100 yards behind a truck doing 56 mph, you will take 15 seconds to catch him. But you are travelling at 34 yards per second, so your two-second gap is two-thirds of the distance between you and the truck. The two-second gap is the time by which you will pass a fixed point, not a moving object.

Therefore, if you move into Lane 1 when you're 100 yards back, if you want to maintain your speed and pass the truck, you’ll have to move out again as soon as your distance from the truck has fallen below 68 yards, which will take you approximately five seconds (not 11 seconds as I said before). This, I would suggest, is not a good idea.

Every time you want to make a lane change, to do it safely you need to have a two-second gap both in your own lane and in the one you’re moving into. If you move into a smaller gap, then traffic behind will need to back off a little to achieve a safe separation distance, with the effect potentially rippling back along the road. A lane change effectively needs twice as much road as staying in lane.

It follows from this that, in busy conditions when there is a steady stream of traffic in all three lanes of the motorway, frequent lane changes serve to reduce the capacity of the road, and capacity is maximised by minimising the number of lane changes.

The thing that reduces capacity is not that drivers won't move over after having passed other vehicles, but that not enough car drivers are prepared to stay in Lane 1 in busy conditions.

It may be difficult to grasp, but the rules that are entirely sensible in free-flowing conditions of moderate traffic actually serve to reduce capacity (and possibly safety too) in busy conditions. That is why the signs in the M25 VSL section say "stay in lane".

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Homer

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 21:22

Member

Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 14:04
Posts: 2325
Location: The interweb

PeterE wrote:

Assuming you leave at least a 2-second gap when pulling in or out, is lane-weaving every 11 seconds really a sensible behaviour?

Having given this further thought, it's more like 5 seconds than 11.

I thought you were out a bit but maths never was my strong point. I still think you confused the issue by talking distance and time. 5 seconds in lane is certainly too short.

Quote:

It follows from this that, in busy conditions when there is a steady stream of traffic in all three lanes of the motorway, frequent lane changes serve to reduce the capacity of the road, and capacity is maximised by minimising the number of lane changes.

Your example is not "busy conditions", at least not where I live/drive. Seeing a 2 second gap in busy conditions is a rarity unless traffic has slowed to a 1st gear crawl. Never mind a whole stream of traffic all obeying the 2 second rule.

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Gatsobait

Post subject: Re: Middle Lane Hogging

Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 00:03

Gold Member

Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 15:43
Posts: 2416

PeterE wrote:

Okay, normally I'd say a minute's separation is too long to stay out of lane 1. But, from what you say lane 1 in front of the truck is clear. That's an assumption on my part, based on the fact that you haven't said there is something there, so if I've totally misunderstood the question let me off, okay?

PeterE wrote:

There's a stream of cars behind doing 70 mph and maintaining a 2-second gap, and several faster vehicles in Lane 3.

Again, that makes it sound to me like I've got a pretty clear space ahead of me in Lane 2. And yes, again that's an assumption on my part.

PeterE wrote:

What is the minimum distance at which you would pull in to Lane 1?

I wouldn't, I'd overtake him now instead. But I wouldn't continue to cruise past him at 70mph. This is about making best use of the space available, after all, so since I've got space in front of me I'll increase speed a bit to make the overtake quicker and then pull into lane 1 a comfortable distance in front of the truck. Obviously I'll try to time this so that I don't create problems for someone in lane 3 wanting to pull into lane 2. And I'll check for police cars as well since I'll be doing :shock:

more than 70mph (crash helmets on, Gatsobait's speeding, the sky is about to fall

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

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Rigpig

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 10:39

Member

Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 09:59
Posts: 3544
Location: Shropshire

Hmm, looks like a few membership renewals for the Middle lane Owners Club will be in the post shortly :wink:

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Gatsobait

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:47

Gold Member

Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 15:43
Posts: 2416

Rigpig wrote:

Hmm, looks like a few membership renewals for the Middle lane Owners Club will be in the post shortly :wink:

The way PeterE put the question means the Middle Lane owners Club can't even answer it. It's about when you would return to lane 1, and for them the answer would be a couple of hundred yards before the junction at which they leave the motorway.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

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simon h

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:55

User

Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 22:12
Posts: 59

todays letters to the Indy wrote:

Middle lane battle

Sir: Your report "Road hogs are 'wasting' 700 miles of motorway" (23 August) makes no mention of the effects of HGVs on motorway behaviour.

As someone who drives on average 36,000 miles a year, a large amount of which is on motorways, may I suggest that the phenomenon of the centre lane owner-drivers is to a large extent HGV avoidance. It can be very intimidating, when driving at reasonable speeds, to find a large wagon 6 feet from the rear of your vehicle, perhaps hooting impatiently. This can be disconcerting to a driver who does not spend a lot of time on motorways, so they move to the centre lane where they feel safer.

R M DAVIES
Southampton

Sir: Anyone used to motorway driving will know the frustration of seeing miles of empty nearside lane while waiting to get past the middle-lane cruisers. However, the claim that the police are able to prosecute these antisocial drivers is less well founded. Such police power is only hypothetical, since hogging the middle or outer lanes is not an offence. In order to prosecute road hogs the police would have to prove "careless driving". The procedure is so cumbersome that in many years as a magistrate I did not see a single prosecution.

Your leading article argues for more motorway lanes. Not only is there no budget for the massive construction that is needed but there awaits a large army of environmental protesters to protect our countryside. A far cheaper and environmentally friendly solution would be to introduce a law that allowed the police to issue tickets for lane-blocking.

MICHAEL GILBERT
Marlow, Buckinghamshire

Sir: I can think of very few occasions when I have been held up in the middle lane by a vehicle travelling at less than the speed limit (other than vehicles in the lane to overtake). I suggest that those who complain of being held up wish to break the law and exceed the speed limit.

You are quite right in your leader that returning to the inside lane results in getting trapped behind slow-moving vehicles - trapped by vehicles travelling illegally fast and often too close together. This is why I stay in the middle lane at 70mph. At that speed no one should be overtaking me.

DAVID BELL
Ware, Hertfordshire

R M Davies wrote:

I suggest that the phenomenon of the centre lane owner-drivers is to a large extent HGV avoidance. It can be very intimidating, when driving at reasonable speeds, to find a large wagon 6 feet from the rear of your vehicle, perhaps hooting impatiently.

I don't understand this, HGVs can't do more than 56mph, cars can do 70 (legally), if the average traffic speed across all the lanes was below 56 then the lorry driver should be able to see that. if there is a fairly large clear space in front of you, and you are being tailgated by a truck, then you are stupid. move nearer to the middle of the gap-muppet! If there is nothing in front of you, should you be on the motorway? What is a reasonable speed anyway-certainly unless there is heavy traffic or a truck ahead of you, or visiblity is low then to hold up a HGV isn't really reasonable.

Michael Gilbert speaks some sense, but David Bell.... what a holier than thou bloke he is. I can't be bothered to to even comment. he's within his rights to do that, but he sounds so unpleasant about it all.

Simon

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Patch

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 16:36

Former Police Officer

Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 00:27
Posts: 351

Ok I actually timed this today and my return lane time is indeed 15 seconds, in that if I will be in that lane for 15 seconds I feel that it is appropriate to move to lane 1 and move back out to lane 2 to pass the next vehicle.

I tried this on the M40 today and it works for me at 70 mph (where I am mainly being overtaken) and more "average speeds" (purely for scientific purposes of course).

Yet again I was stunned to watch both the fully paid up members of the middle lane owners club but also people who fall into the "I'll catch that vehicle up in a minute so I'll stay in this lane" club. Pathetic.

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Homer

Post subject:

Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 12:34

Member

Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 14:04
Posts: 2325
Location: The interweb

Having though about it some more I don't thnk I could put a fixed time on it.

The question is would there be an overall benefit to traffic if I move over? If the answer is yes then you should move over. In some cases that may mean you are only in the other lane for a few seconds.

And moving over and back again does not constitute weaving. Repeating the same manouver without staying in one lane for any length of time would be.

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Rigpig

Post subject:

Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 15:07

Member

Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 09:59
Posts: 3544
Location: Shropshire

Patch wrote:

Yet again I was stunned to watch both the fully paid up members of the middle lane owners club but also people who fall into the "I'll catch that vehicle up in a minute so I'll stay in this lane" club. Pathetic.

Indeed

Homer wrote:

The question is would there be an overall benefit to traffic if I move over? If the answer is yes then you should move over.

This is the crux of the issue isn't it? The highway code says you should move over and if everybody did then a benefit would ensue. However, the majority of sheep who give it any conscious thought (which most don't) decide that there is no point moving over because nobody else does.
Similarly, mums who do the school run often claim they would stop and walk the kids to school, "if everybody else did"
Drivers who use hand held mobile phones do so "because everyone else does" (and there is next to zero chance of being spotted by the thinly deployed Bib)

So the weight falls behind the bad, undesirable or socially destructive actions, simply because everybody else behaves that way. And tragically, in this lazy (in the broad sense), selfish society, anyone who is able to obey the law, the highway code or whatever, is labelled a 'pious do-gooder', just because they posses the strength of character to defy the indolent behaviour of the masses :roll:

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botach

Post subject:

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 20:40

Gold Member

Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 23:26
Posts: 9263
Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK

I'm playing devils advocate on this one.
Puling out would need a minimum distance of 2 seconds = two second rule , add to that time for a last minute mirror check, add another two seconds = 4 seconds .( needs plenty of distance - too easy to run up back of HGV if it slows )
Now isn't the recommendation that you indicate and let indicators run for at least 4 flashes ( at 1 flash per 1.5 secs) (lets add 8/10 secs for switching them on , 4 flashes and off)
Total now = 4+8, add a mirror check, lets say a speed check =1 sec , lets say 1 sec = 14 secs at closing speed of 7 yds /sec = 98 yds min

And i'm not a fan of the cloc brigade either - try the M1/M6 on a saturday/sunday - one lane of traffic moving north/south( a high percentage of it at 65) - 90% of it in L2, making the M/WAY in effect a two lane road.HGV flash, other drivers pass and indicate left - they just sit there in a trance.
However it's amazing how often you move over into L1 to find that the vehicle you moved over for sits like a parrot outside you as you catch up a HGV ,leaving you to slow down to let it pass to move into L2.

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Capri2.8i

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 17:50

Gold Member

Joined: Thu May 19, 2005 22:21
Posts: 925

Another problem I find with the MLOC is that they will often never overtake and so constantly vary their speed to whatever the middle lane is doing. Often I will go to overtake a car and HGV in lane 2 using lane 3, the HGV will decide he hasn't got enough puff to overtake, pulls back in and the middle-lane hogger will speed back upto 75mph and drive on my left hand shoulder leaving me as the lemon in lane 3. Of course I can speed up a bit, but you never know at what point they will stop accelerating again. And when I'm in a LWB van they can make life awkward. What bugs me is that they could have overtook the truck, but a lack of confidance often means they won't use the 3rd lane either.

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Post subject:

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 19:09

Member

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 00:24
Posts: 2400
Location: Kendal, Cumbria

I'm not answering, on the basis of "not enough info", as mentioned above. :wink:

I have no "minimum distance", as it depends entirely on a heap of variable circumstances.

On the one hand, if I am clearly holding up the car behind, and L3 isn't available for him to use, then I'll consider a 5 second leap into and out of L1 simply as a courtesy to let him by.

At the other extreme, if the lorry in front is behind another one and looks as though he may well overtake, then I'll avoid dipping back into a much bigger L1 gap as I know I may well be looking to get into L3 and get past the pair of them in a few moments.

There are a host of other variables too, some of which are far more subtle, like the "body language" of all the other vehicles, which lead me to continually vary the size of gap that I'll look for in L1.

But the bottom line is that I'm always actively looking to manage the situation so as to occupy the left-most available lane, perhaps I'd better simply leave it at that...

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BikerPaul

Post subject: Re: Middle Lane Hogging

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 21:29

User

Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 17:53
Posts: 16

PeterE wrote:

You're driving in Lane 2 of a motorway at 70 mph.

Is there a fault with my car then?

Seriously, I have this problem on the way to work. If I can see the truck within the current stretch to a bend, then I should be in Lane 2, given the speed diffferential betwen me and him will normally be 20 or so MPH if I am cruising.

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Teepee

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:46

User

Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 18:19
Posts: 90
Location: East Yorks

PeterE wrote:

The thing that reduces capacity is not that drivers won't move over after having passed other vehicles, but that not enough car drivers are prepared to stay in Lane 1 in busy conditions.

PeterE wrote:

What is the minimum distance at which you would pull in to Lane 1?

There appears to be a contradiction here. The minimum distance wouldn't apply in busy conditions.

In quiet (and dry, warm) conditions, I would probably leave about 300 - 400 yards - 100 yards for the 2 second gap in front, 100 yards for the 2 second gap behind and 100 - 200 yards for manoeuvering in and then out again.

In busy conditions - if there was someone tailgating, I might move across earlier, but not if there was a big queue behind them - I would most likely get stuck in L1 in these circumstances, and then my concentration is likely to be on trying to get out again rather than on the traffic ahead, so it's probably safer to wait for a bigger gap or stay where I am for a while, even with the tailgater there.

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