Safe Speed Forums

There has been some discussion about 'decriminalised' offences lately: parking, congestion charge, etc.

Now my position on this is absolutely clear. There is no such thing as a decriminalised offence in this sense. It is just weasel words designed to enforce fines for criminal offences but without the need for evidence, a fair trial, presumption of innocence, or any of that hassle.

The civil law is to do with either contracts/promises between private individuals, and stopping unfair breaches ; or tort, the unfair infringement of one's personal freedom by another. In both cases the state may intervene to stop the unfair behaviour, with the sole aim of putting the situation right with an injunction or compensation.

Criminal law is to do with breaches of rules laid down by the state, and (in the case of a fine) with the aim of punishing the offender and detrerring others. So called 'civil' offences are still criminal offences by any reasonable defintion of the word as far as I can see, and seem to have been engineered solely to put the criminal law system back to a more primitive time before fair trials

Anyone care to defend the use of civil penalties?

Totally with you ZAM- not so much a case of "decrim" offences as a case of trying to make a fast buck with no proof - the latest in the line is giving "TRAFFIC OFFICERS" of Highways Agency powers to stop on pain of penalty.- Are we on the way to a private motorway police force, run and staffed by amatures.Clarkson wrote a piece on it some time ago asking if you'd sooner be helped on the motorway by a truly professional ,safety trained BIB( looking out for your safety) in an up to date reliable police vehicle or one of these.
ME - if i break down on the motorway i want to see a Police traffic officer turning up - he/she won't let me break wind unless i am safe.

I agree also - its a clear breach of the Bill of Rights that was discussed in another thread here.

You should not be fined unless the fine is levvied by a court of law after a trial or hearing.

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"Are you sh**ing me?"
"John Spartan, you are fined one credit for a violation of the verbal morality statute."

I agree with what I think is your underlying idea, but I don't agree with
what you've actually said.

Here in London there is no respect for Law & Order, and that is not really
to be wondered at.

I'm very unhappy about the present judicial processes relating to
Motoring Offences. Magistrates' Courts are a sick joke anyway and
there are various defects with so much of the prosecution evidence that is
usually accepted without question (Speed Cameras and Red Light
Cameras for example).

I wouldn't object to more-or-less automatic penalties if it was on the basis
of a clearly stated case supported by high-quality evidence, and with the
accused having a proper chance to dispute all aspects of the case before
a proper court - and without any undue additional penalties being
incurred as a result of his arguing the case (so long as his argument was
reasonable).

The important thing is for the Authorities to start doing things properly.

Brings to mind the heavy handed 'blagger' of a Parking Attendant' that my sister & workmates had a run in with on Friday.

3 new (55 plated) company cars stop to unload on double yellows outside a conference centre. 'Hitler' runs accross road, between traffic and starts writing ticket for, well the woman with the new jag... despite protests to be allowed to move NOW, he stuck the notice on the window & then blocked her entering her vehicle saying your vehicle will be impounded 'xxxx garage' is on its way to remove your car, in slightly more colourful language!..."the police have been contacted, you are not allowed into your vehicle" and wrote out the next ticket. Centre staff tried to intervene, (more colourful words) and even workmen looked over. He radioed his supervisor, and then tried to photograph all 3 cars, which by now 2 had been ticketed (staff had advised them to remove the fine packets before they could be photographed in-situ). The parking supervisor arrived and escorted his 'attendant' round the back of the centre & bollocked the hell out of him! "I told you! LEAVE IT! You're not listening are you. Leave it NOW!, and so he sculked about, taking a few more photos from a small distance. The workmen who had been watching this, came to 'the damsels', albeit a bit late & genuinely offered to 'give him a seeing to' in the back of the wagon. Quality. Both issued 'penalty notices' are being challenged & letters of complaint are on their way to Perth & Kinross D.C.

This is the sort of **** that gives these guys & girls a bad name. At least in Aberdeen (BIT of a run-in, getting permissions from control office) , Glasgow & Dundee the ones I've encountered have been fair, polite & gracious allowing me to stay for some extended 'loading' in the normal course of my work. I'm almost tempted to park there for a laugh to bait him out.....I wonder if 'parking' an abandoned cycle would be enough of a tease?

Is there any further news on this "bill of rights" thing... I got 2 parking fines the other day... annoying because I'm usually ultra-aware of all their anal little rules and tricks but if you drive in london the systems designed to catch you one way or another.

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Fear is a weapon of mass distraction

Pepipoo is the place to go for BoR stuff. Or there's this site here

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Less Kodak, more Kojak.
In times of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

Interesting... So they think that changing the wording from "fines" to "charges" will get them off the hook vis a vis the Bill of Rights. I suppose that it might, but if they are planning on making "charges" rather than "fining" you, one assumes that if you don't pay the "charge" the authority's only recourse is to sue in the county court.

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"Politicians are the same the world over... We build bridges where there aren't any rivers." - Nikita Kruschev