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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 08:39 
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Stephen wrote:
I feel that In my opinion that it is balanced and fair the first check when I form the opinion of speed and to see the exact speed, second one if they realise that I am there and they can loose enough speed to get them below the prosecution limit set then I have done my job, If not then I am still doing my job by ticketing them. No doubt I will be wrong with this as well.
Stephen

That’s a fairer way to enforce a largely unfair rule.

One thing that catches my eye: if the two speed readings don’t match, then how do you know the difference wasn’t due to slip effect?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:07 
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That's entirely my point, now in law the recorded speed is confirmation of the officers opinion but being technically minded I have huge issues with this.

At least with a fixed gatso you do have a robust means of double checking......so long as the flash timing is accurate.

Has anyone ever used a GPS device to successfully discredit a 20:20?

It's hugely concerning when as far as I can see it there is no means of discounting the presence of slip effect. Given initiative like brunstrom's points for catching a speeder and so on how 'independent' is an officer's prior opinion?.....now there's a defence!


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:17 
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civil engineer wrote:
Has anyone ever used a GPS device to successfully discredit a 20:20?

GPS speedos were used to confirm the presence of slip effect when filming for TwTM and Inside Out.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:24 
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What's happened with it all?

why has it all gone so quiet?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:59 
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civil engineer wrote:
What's happened with it all?

why has it all gone so quiet?


That’s the problem Civil Engineer when anyone gets near to proving these things are not accurate the government goes into hiding. I’d even question Gatso’s, look what happened when David Edgar (yes I know some call him a crank also) got near to proving that flash timings where not accurate, they will not let these cases go to court because they know they can be proved wrong. It’s the same in the states look at this case from TheNewspaper.com.

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Monday, September 18, 2006
Houston Thwarts Red Light Camera Challenge

An attempt by Houston, Texas resident Michael Kubosh to challenge the city's red light camera system was thwarted yesterday by local police. Kubosh can only take the city to court if he is mailed a red light camera citation, so he announced his intention to run the light at Milam and Elgin streets at a time when the streets were empty. A squad car, however, was waiting off to the side. Instead of a flash from the red light camera -- which some suggest may have been turned off -- he was stopped by a live Houston Police Department (HPD) officer. "It shows the length they will try to go to to protect this money-making scheme," Kubosh said moments before his attempt. "This is big money. It is the classic example of David and Goliath. " Kubosh stated a number of legal objections to the use of automated ticketing machines that are planned for fifty intersections. "Over half the time somebody gets a ticket, it's someone else driving the car," he said. "It's wrong. The Texas House of Representatives in the last four sessions has voted overwhelmingly against red light camera bills, and yet the city has gone ahead on its own and installed this red light camera system here." Now Michael Kubosh plans to run another light -- with family members guarding the intersection to make sure there is no possibility of a collision -- without letting HPD know. Kubosh will be represented in court by his brother Paul, an attorney. "The city has been hoodwinked by vendors into another money grab scheme," Michael Kubosh said.


Just look what means they will go to to stop cases getting to court, and it's no different in this country. Until someone is prepared to take this government on then we will all just have to sit back and take it.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:44 
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How can it be done.

People are prosecuted every day where with a bit of effort they could use a 'slip effect defence' how come nobody has proved the reasonable doubt?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:01 
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In the Ken Bunce case we proved that the truck had accelerated faster than a truck could accelerate with the two readings and there must have been some slip error. Then the copper stated that acpo code of practice was only a guide line. Ken was lasered 3 times the last one was 7mph over the limit. The magistraite then stated that as he had not said "I was not speeding" and found him guilty for 7mph over the speed limit £300 fine £215 costs. They stiffed him for being a professional driver. didnt take into acount clean liscence, and lowish income,

It was an absolute farce. If they are loosing they cheat.
The reason is that the lti is 99% accurate. You have to fight nail and tooth to get the video. Only a few of those will show slip error, those cases get dropped , usually on another issue like signs ir opperator error and the LLTI20/20 lives for another day.

99% or even 99.9% accurate is not good enough if you get lasered 5 times a day on the motorway driving a truck. 200 working days a year X 3 they will get a wrong reading or 4 :shock:

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


Last edited by anton on Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:11, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:04 
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civil engineer wrote:
How can it be done.


I don't know, but I would support anyone who was prepared to do it, because it's going to take allot more than the likes of us.

Quote:
People are prosecuted every day where with a bit of effort they could use a 'slip effect defence' how come nobody has proved the reasonable doubt?


To be honest I thought that’s what the inside-out program and others had proved, as Smeggy said above, but for some reason the government won’t accept these pieces of equipment are faulty, and that’s why they won’t hand over one of the British versions because they know they’re the same as the American versions.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:17 
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A fully certified british spec lti was used in the trevor mcdonald program and slip error was proved on camera. Then "dark forces" got the item dropped from the program and inplace "Mr Loophole" was shown telling people how to park on "t bars", broken lines and yellow disabled bays.

Just like Opperation Chetar booklet, when I won the ASA ruling "dark forces" rang round saying that the GMP had nothing to do with it it was drivesafe yet it was launced by a GMP police officer on the GMP website. They sucessfully defused the news story.

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


Last edited by anton on Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:23, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:22 
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If it's only a guide line for use, how do you know it's being used properly. The code of practice was surely written to coincide with the manufactures instructions of operation, so if the instructions (code of practice) are not followed by the letter then there is room for errors. As you said Anton it's a load of b......oks

And sorry I didn’t realise it was a British spec Lti that was used.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:30 
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It is not your fauly you didn't know. But the government DO know!
It is my understanding Dr Clarke has had meetings and correspondence.
I have also seen lettter stating that no motorcycles were tested in the type approval by the Home Office Scientic Developmet Branch. but "what the hell", We'll ticket them any way. Curved windscreen, Car behind them "Send a summons" , let the court sort it out. ( Time for me to go in a dark corner to calm down)

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:42 
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deleted due to double post

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Last edited by Dixie on Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:45, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:42 
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anton wrote:
( Time for me to go in a dark corner to calm down)


You're not alone on that one, what worries me, just wait until our new breed of PSCO's get hold of these machines, it's going to be an even bigger free for all!!

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:43 
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it's so frustrating

when you look at the service of NIP's in unrecorded mail, the ECHR case, The civilian operator case and the dodgyscope itself the whole pile of cards is tantalisingly close to coming tumbling down.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:45 
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I am seeing double now!
edit : double posts removed. LOL

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


Last edited by anton on Sat Sep 23, 2006 09:38, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:52 
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anton wrote:
I am seeing double now!


I'll have to apologise again. Just so you are aware I’m at work and the network is so slow during lunch time (well even slower) it takes forever to correct any mistakes I would have deleted one of my posts but I could not get to it in time.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 13:25 
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To answer a few points raised by yourselves,
1. I check by getting a police vehicle to run through the laser at 30mph
2. I make sure that there is only one vehicle coming towards me and none going away and register its speed, then continually make checks on its approach and you can either see its speed increase or decrease.
3. I then move my scope away from the number plate and try to lock on the vehicle in different places, which it doesn't, after a while it gives an error reading.
4. I make sure that I get the three error readings of E1,E2 and E3.
After all this including the laser alignment check I am happy that it is working and no slip error is in my mind.
Stephen


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 16:14 
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Stephen wrote:
To answer a few points raised by yourselves,
1. I check by getting a police vehicle to run through the laser at 30mph
2. I make sure that there is only one vehicle coming towards me and none going away and register its speed, then continually make checks on its approach and you can either see its speed increase or decrease.
3. I then move my scope away from the number plate and try to lock on the vehicle in different places, which it doesn't, after a while it gives an error reading.
4. I make sure that I get the three error readings of E1,E2 and E3.
After all this including the laser alignment check I am happy that it is working and no slip error is in my mind.
Stephen

Thanks Stephen.
Unfortunately those steps would not make me believe with confidence that:
a) slip cannot occur
b) a vehicle's "speed increase or decrease" between readings wasn't actually a result of slip


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 19:23 
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to add my voice

if anyone had actualy seen a lti lastech system in operation they might realise that as well as the visual observations (the red dot), the operator has their audible tracking, so they know pretty damn quickly if they are off target

Quote:
Stephen

4. I make sure that I get the three error readings of E1,E2 and E3.



dont you just hate it though when you get an E53 error :lol:

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Last edited by camera operator on Tue Sep 19, 2006 19:51, edited 1 time in total.

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camera operator wrote:
dont you just hate it though when you get an E53 error :lol:

...but I'm sure everyone else would love it :hehe:


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