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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 05:32 
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This "call for evidence" closing 25th November 2004:

(apologies for formatting)

PRESS NOTICE

Road Pricing: Should all roads be toll roads?

On the 19th July the Transport Committee called for evidence on the
performance of the M6 Toll Road and the Government's proposal to
commission
a further tolled motorway from Birmingham to Manchester. Following the
Department for Transport's publication of the "Feasibility Study of Road
Pricing in the UK" the Committee has chosen to make the M6 evidence
session
the first part of a wider inquiry investigating the prospects for
national
road pricing.

The Committee wishes to examine how the proposals being put forward by
the
Department for Transport will change the way we pay for road use, namely
through toll roads, road pricing, congestion charging, lorry road user
charging and parking levies. The Committee wishes to examine what impact
these policies could have and how soon their widespread adoption could
be
seen. In particular the Committee wishes to examine:

. Should road pricing be introduced for certain sections of the
road
network in the short term?
. If road pricing is introduced, what factors should determine
which
roads are priced and what technology should be used?

. How 'hi-tech' does road pricing need to be?
. What role should local highway authorities play in introducing
road
pricing?
. How easy will it be to move from individual toll roads and local
urban congestion charging schemes in the short term, to national
road
pricing in the longer term, and what needs to be done to ensure the
transition is a success?

. How will the Lorry Road User Charge fit into any national road
pricing and motorway tolling developments?
. Are there other measures which could reduce congestion more
effectively?


Witnesses are invited to submit memoranda to the Committee before
Thursday
25 November 2004. It is unlikely that memoranda submitted after this
date
will be published. Witnesses who wish their memoranda to be treated in
confidence should contact the Committee Clerk in advance.

Memoranda should be a maximum of 6 A4 pages in length. Witnesses are
requested to submit a single hard copy of their memorandum by post to
the
above address, together with an electronic version (in ASCII, Word)
either
by e-mail to transcom@parliament.uk or on a disk accompanying the hard
copy.
Witnesses who are unable to submit electronic versions of their
submissions
are respectfully requested to take particular care that their
submissions
are legible. All submissions should be final and complete; the Committee
will not accept draft memoranda or subsequent amendments. Memoranda
submitted to the Committee should be kept confidential until published
by
the Committee.

If you would prefer future press notices to be sent via email rather
than
post please email your address to transcom@parliament.uk

Press Notice 43/2003-04 28 October 2004

Eve Samson, Clerk of the Committee

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 23:44 
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AFAIC, we already have road charging, it's called the road fund licence.
This idea is simply yet another way to take more money off the peasants to fund the grossly expensive lifestyle of the politburo.
The whole system will implode.
It seems to me that this dictatorship we presently have is just begging for a civil war.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 23:48 
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Dratsabasti wrote:
AFAIC, we already have road charging, it's called the road fund licence.

Don't forget fuel duty.

Maybe we can look forward to £1 per gallon again....or maybe not.. :evil:

I wonder if any one in power has forgotten the fuel tax protests... :shock:

I do feel things are about at breaking point, especialy since it now costs over £50 to fill up the car again.

Germany introduced a scheme for trucks. It was a disaster. The technology didn't work. It was late and over budget. Surprise surprise.. :?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:06 
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Make sure EDS get the contract for implementation - it will never work in a million years!

I seriously don't understand these morons in charge as they must realise using a hi-tech solution will cost far more than it will bring in revenue. People already pay more for congestion as sitting in traffic uses fuel, stop start traffic uses more fuel, bigger engines use more fuel. It is a perfectly equitable system at the moment. In fact it would be better to get rid of the road fund licence and get all the money via petrol taxes as this is the most cost effective.

Seeing as oil is predicted to rise to $100 a barrel within two years and maybe up to $300 within a decade I can see why the government is doing it. With prices that high road use will diminish drastically and their revenue stream will get cut off. If they bring in road use pricing they can whack the costs up to make up any short fall as they have control of the pricing scheme. If they do that there will be massive amounts of civil disobedience which is obviously why they have all this repressive legislation in the pipeline. The irony is that they keep saying they want us to use our cars less but public transport is a disgrace, the streets aren't safe to walk at night (not safe in daylight in some places) so how the hell are people supposed to get around?

I'd suggest voting tory but I am not altogether sure they won't do exactly the same.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 04:01 
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This is the report that they are using as a foundation:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/d ... 029788.pdf

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 08:30 
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I've been working through this and my god, there's a serious lack of critical thinking!

This is the draft Safe Speed memorandum so far, as it's flowed with little regard for the finer details of the English - yet.

Memorandum - Road Pricing - Waste not, Want not

(It's a waste, and we don't want it.)

Introduction

Road pricing has a surprising number of advocates. Great claims are made for reducing congestion, but we cannot believe a word of it. Road pricing is flawed, pointless, expensive, inefficient, regressive and intrusive.

There is a severe lack of critical thinking behind the schemes under discussion, and major effects are not even discussed.


Flawed

The dream is that we can reduce congestion by ensuring that roads are more expensive to use when they are likely to be congested. But the proponents have clearly forgotten that 'time is money', and that congestion always costs time. Adding a monetary penalty to the use of congested roads simply makes a small addition to a pre-existing regulatory influence ? that congested roads use extra time.

When we plan journeys, in most cases the first question is: 'Have I got time'? The question: 'Can I afford the journey?' is far lower down the list.

The report says: 'More Londoners think they would drive more often if there was less congestion than people in other regions.' Why is that?

The report suggests that congestion has an associated cost. Of course it does. That cost comes from lost time. Since much of the lost time accrues to businesses, and since businesses have a strong interest in controlling their costs, it should be obvious that we already have a powerful regulatory system in place based on congestion. Businesses make choices based on efficient transport, which may often include choosing a location away from congested town centres.

In summary, implementing a road pricing scheme based on congestion will simply add slightly to existing pressures experienced by all groups of road users to avoid congestion. It will not and cannot be expected to make a fundamental difference.

Before we embark on a system of road pricing we must fully and properly evaluate the self regulation of congestion via the mechanism of increased journey time discouraging journeys. There is great evidence of such mechanisms operating in London, where traffic growth has been far below national traffic growth over 30 years.


Regressive

Road pricing will have a far greater effect on poor people than rich people. In fact rich people really will not care, while poor people may find themselves unable to afford to travel. Clearly this in unacceptable.


Expensive

Any practical system of road pricing will be massively expensive to install and operate. Clearly there would need to be very compelling, very certain and long-term sustained benefits before we should decide to embark on such a scheme.


Intrusive

Most imaginable schemes involve invasions of privacy. The charging authority would have data on vehicle movements, while normally in this country we expect to be able to move freely without being tracked, monitored and recorded.


Error and breakdowns

All technical systems experience breakdowns, so obviously there will have to be provisions for system breakdowns. One particular important area is to consider what happens when the equipment on an individual vehicle breaks down. How will it be possible to know what charges should apply to that use of the vehicle? It might be suggested that a vehicle without a working data gathering system should be automatically disabled, but this would bring serious problems. For example:

* Areas of poor position signal would accumulate disabled vehicles.
* The broadcast parts of the system would become a terrorist target, since all motor transport would be disabled if the system was disabled.


Subversion

Equipment installed in individual vehicles would be very vulnerable to unauthorised modifications, induced failures, or deliberate disconnection.

If instead we follow the London congestion charge model with ANPR, there will obviously be people who would use false or stolen registrations to avoid payment. This could become widespread and contribute to loss of control of the entire vehicle registration process.

Schemes of Electronic Vehicle Identification (EVI) would be vulnerable to tampering, jamming, cloning and simple destruction. And how would a road user know if his EVI tag was working or not? Even if he did know, he would very likely be happy to turn a blind eye for as long as possible.

With a satellite positioning based system data gathered in the vehicle regarding the vehicle?s movements must be ?uploaded? to central administration by some means. The most likely technology would be cellular telephone link, with a data burst sent once a day, once a week or once a month. What would happen if the cellular link failed? Especially what would happen if the cellular link was caused to fail?


Information

It is not acceptable that results of the London Congestion Charge are analysed mainly by its implementers.

3.12 The converse is that a reduction in congestion can be achieved through a relatively small reduction in traffic. The experience of the London Congestion Charge is that a 15 per cent fall in traffic has led to an average 30 per cent reduction in congestion - Congestion Charging Central London, Impacts Monitoring, Second Annual Report, published by TfL in 2004.


Short lived benefit

Since we have seen that simple logical analysis reveals that the main reaons for avoiding congestion has always been and will always be the time spent wasted in congested conditions, it follows that the proposed system of road pricing will have a short term effect, but a long term cost. Consider this illustrative graph describing the effects of a road pricing scheme on traffic nearing saturation limits in a population centre:

Image

At time '20' a system of roads pricing is introduced, and a short term benefit appears. However by time '60' we have returned to the path that would have been followed if the road pricing scheme had not been introduced. But, and it is a very big but, now we have the massive overhead of the road pricing infrastructure absorbing national resources for no benefit whatsoever.


Knowing the charge

A particular major difficulty that has not been discussed in the report, is how would a road user know what charges he would encounter before he makes his journey decision. We might assume initially that most road users are regulars on the route, but regulars are the hardest to discourage with pricing.

Those that do not travel a route regularly may be the easiest to discourage, but how would they estimate in advance what the charge would be? They may get an unpleasant bill at the end of the month, but that forms no part of the discouragement to travel in congested places for the month that it applies. Some people would undoubtedly use a web site to pre-calculate their journey cost. But most people simply would not bother.

Displaying the charge at the roadside would be horrendously expensive and completely ineffective because the folk seeing the charge for a congested road would already be incurring it. It may discourage them from returning, but not from using the road in the first place.

Assuming a satellite based system it would be quite impossible to transmit pricing data for display inside the vehicle because of the huge number of charging zones. Local storage of data on board vehicles would work, especially if integrated with satellite navigation, but once a road user has got into their vehicle and started on the trip they are unlikely to change their plans for a few pounds of extra charges. And the data in the vehicle would need to be very regularly updated to reflect the latest charges.

The problem of being unable to know the charge at the time of planning the journey would make rapidly varied charges reflecting temporary local conditions completely pointless.

We conclude that knowing the charge in good time to avoid incurring the charge would be quite a significant problem. Let?s please remember that half the population is of below average intelligence! Millions upon millions of road users will simply pay the bill and moan without ever knowing where and when the larger charges accumulated.


London Congestion charge 'hassle factor'

Paying the London congestion charge isn?t easy for occasional visitors. It might be argued, and it must be considered that a significant part of the claimed success of the London congestion charge is not based on the £5 fee, but is instead based on the time and trouble required to pay the £5 fee.

...more to follow

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