Safe Speed Forums

Driver Training is currently a joke, but it's NOT funny!

In Australia you are issued with a "P" plate when you get your licence and this means that any time you drive for the next 3 years you cannot have ANY alcohol in your blood. Other than that one simple rule there are no other limitations on "P" plate drivers.

This system is flawed, IMO, because a lot of the young, mainly male, drivers think they know everything there is to know about how to drive and then drive like lunatics. This, IMO, is why such a huge percentage of the deaths on our roads are people under 25.

I assume there is a similar sort of scheme in the UK but I would like to propose the following licensing changes:

Getting the initial licence remains unchanged but when you get your license you get issued with a "T" plate (training) which restricts the hours you are allowed to drive to daylight ONLY.

The plate would be valid for 1 year, after which time you become unlicensed unless you attend a registered car control course. You could do the course at any time during the year, and once you show the proof of passing the course you get a "P" plate which lasts the remainder of the 3 year probation period. In this way ALL drivers would be forced to do some basic car control courses and hopefully reign in some of the idiots by demonstrating that they DON'T know it all!

There are those out there that believe that driving courses promote fast and dangerous driving but I would like to offer my own experience as an example:

When I was in my 20's I was a "big headed fool who thought I WAS invincible" until I did a well respected car control course. I went in thinking that I knew it all and that they wouldn't be able to teach me anything.

The BIGGEST lessons I learned from that course were:

1. I was a sh it driver who did not even know how to brake in an emergency.

2. 60kph is fu cking FAST!

So, at least in my case, driver education had a HUGE impact on my driving. I slowed down DRAMATICALLY and became a lot more aware of the cars around me.

Please excuse the expletives but that is really how I felt after doing the course.

Even if this effect only occurred on 50% of the people attending the courses, there would be 50% less lunatics on the road!

Surely this would have a far more beneficial effect on the road toll than the useless "speed kills" crap they keep spewing out.

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Ross

Yes I'm a hoon, but only on the track!!!!

There's huge potential benefit and significant potential danger in what you're suggesting. I touch on the subject in the new Safe Speed manifesto:

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/manifesto.html

What we have to do is encourage road craft skills and safe and sensible attitudes. If we simply provide car control skills we cause some of the lunatics to get into trouble at far higher speeds.

Inexperienced drivers get into trouble in two main ways: Firstly, their hazard perception is underdeveloped and they sometimes don't recognise danger ahead until it's too late. Secondly, it takes time to learn how much concentration and attention is required for the task of driving. Inexperienced drivers are rather prone to taking their eyes off the road for too long.

Young drivers have their own problems, usually exacerbated by inexperience (because they just aren't old enough to have accumulated experience). Young drivers tend to be overconfident and subject to peer pressures. In some cases they think if they don't drive fast their mates will think less of them.

There may be some shortcuts to gaining hazard perception experience - if there are we'll have found a great way on improving inexperienced drivers. I know a few folk who are exploring hazard perception training and I've made a bit of a contribution here:
http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=991

So what do we do? We give information - drivers gaining experience need to understand the consequences of sub-optimal attitudes, they need to understand their mistakes and they need to be able to get help in understanding and analysing their own mistakes. They need to understand the top ten mistakes and how to avoid them.

What they don't need are high levels of car control skills. We risk boosting overconfidence even further.

I don't know about driving hours restrictions. And I'm uncertain if we need to force everyone into post-test training. I think we could improve things very considerably before we went to that degree of trouble and expense. And at the end of the day that's exactly the point. So long as we can get positive improvements every year we'll reap the benefits.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I am not advocating an advanced driving course!

In the "car control" course I attended the majority of the day was performed at 35mph or less. The ONLY time the speed got any higher was for the braking training and even then we only got to 50mph IN A STRAIGHT LINE.

This course taught me just how damn fast (God I can walk that fast) 35mph really is and it slowed me down. I realised through doing the course that the chance of stopping if I did not get a decent amount of warning, even from 35mph, was virtually zero. This meant that where I had been racing around thinking I was invincible with parked cars and blind corners, I now realised that if someone pulled out of a driveway or was stopped just around the blind corner I would crash.

I SLOWED down because the course showed me the danger of what I had been doing.

I am NOT advocating an advanced driver course with track work to learn how to handle a car at speed.

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Ross

Yes I'm a hoon, but only on the track!!!!

Ross, I don't see how a daylight hours restriction helps, surely that means we would be denying new drivers the very experience they need to start accumulating. What I think we do need to do, is ensure that driver training covers as many road conditions as possible, including night driving. This is an area in which the UK system fails miserably; although a driver may have had tuition which covered different conditions, there is no compulsion to do so, and the test does not check for it -- the UK test does not even cover motorway driving, which is something I've never understood.


Kaz

Would this restriction only apply once you'd passed your test, or whilst you were taking lessons as well? I only ask this because the majority of my driving lessons took place partly or entirely after sunset, and if I'd been restricted from driving after sunset whilst a learner I'd have ended up with a gap of about 6 months between my first few lessons and the rest of them. If you're going to ban learners as well as T-platers from driving after sunset, then you'll effectively double the workload of driving instructors during the summer and all but make them redundant during the winter...

You'd also risk clogging up the roads with all the newbie drivers in the hour or so before sunset as they desperately try to get back home whilst there's still a hint of daylight, and I doubt the rest of the road using population would be too happy about that.


I can see where you're coming from, but wouldn't it be better to make the standard test more rigorous and require all learners to be exposed to less than ideal road conditions (darkness, twilight, wet roads etc. - basically as much as possible given the typical conditions of the roads in their region), so that anyone who manages to pass this one test has proven themselves capable of at least a basic level of competence across all the road and traffic conditions they'll likely encounter in their first few months as a driver?

Your suggestion makes it sound like it'd be easier to pass the initial test, allowing a newbie driver onto the roads without supervision despite knowing full well that they haven't any experience of less than ideal conditions, relying on the T plate to warn other road users of their inexperience, and only then requiring them to take additional tests in order to unlock the restrictions on their licence and bring them up to what really should be the basic standard for a licenced driver in the first place.

Statistically, a young, inexperienced driver is more likely to have a crash at night while out with his/her friends than at any other time.

My proposal is that once the licence has been passed and the new driver is allowed to drive on his/her own they should only be able to drive during the day, gaining general experience, until they have passed a car control course. The course will have highlighted to them, in the most obvious way, just how hard it is to stop or avoid an obstacle at what are generally perceived as "slow" speeds.

Once this course has been attended and passed the young driver is less likely to be provoked by his/her "friends" to drive in an unsafe manner or engage in "street drags" as they will have a genuine understanding of the dangers involved.

This proposal will never stop the total idiot who has no regard for his/her or anyone else’s safety, but it will have a significant affect on any half way intelligent young driver.

It worked for me and I was an idiot before I did the course. I didn’t know it at the time but I really was an inconsiderate, dangerous, unthinking moron. Nothing much has changed but at least I now drive a lot more carefully and a lot slower.

Leaner drivers should experience every conceivable driving situation possible BEFORE they get their licence so I only propose the “night ban” after they get their licence. They could get their licence, enrol in a course the next week, and have a “P” licence within 2 weeks so really it’s up to the driver as to how long they want to be limited to “day” driving.

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Ross

Yes I'm a hoon, but only on the track!!!!

Where did all these replies come from?

In the UK, when we say "advanced driving", we're usually talking about "road craft" ("How to drive as safely as possible in traffic").

Obviously from your description, your course served you well, and that's to be applauded and encouraged.

But it all helps to show just how difficult this thing is to get right.

We have to confer just the right skills, knowledge and attitudes, then it works. Get any one of those wrong and we can easily make matters worse.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I'm not sure what daylight hours are like where you are but it is currently getting light around 8am and is dark by around 4pm here (and that's with daylight saving in effect). It would make getting to and from work extremely difficult.

Also restricting anyone to daylight only is not going to give them very much practice.

And if you get stuck in a traffic jam? or it smows? and you are held up do you just abandon the car and call a cab?

OK, so why not take it a step further and combine the T and P tests into a single test? If the primary design goal of the testing system is to churn out as many licenced drivers as possible, then your idea of separating the tests out is a good one, but surely the primary goal ought to be churning out as many halfway-competent drivers as possible, even if that means failing to pass a certain number of drivers who could have passed the T test alone?

As stated on another thread in the "Improve Standards Forum" have 17 year old son. He has just completed a Pass Plus .. which involved assessed night driving and a motorway drive. He is now looking at an IAM to "outdo" his parents, uncles, aunts and godparents.. at this young age...

When he was learning ... we made sure he had experience of some night driving.....trips to local food outlet to quell his mother's very strange requests, a little jaunt to Blackpool and the illuminations jam....teh dreaded shools run, NSL drives..... and he joins me on the drive to "settle" the latest "kitten" as we call 'em at ours! (Our new lass is displaying pleasing tendencies )

Guess we are lucky because we do have some very interestingly fast NSL roads on the doorstep so he has been able to practice his technique in an area he knows intimately. He completed a skid/brake lesson this afternoon and am now as confident as can be that he will be able to keep control of car in severe conditions ....

But young William is a young man ... we let him drive himself and his brothers and sister to school. If they indulge in after school activities - which they do - it means a twighlight/night drive.... If we prevent this... defeats objective of our new driver taking over from his mother - who is currently on a maternity leave. It also stunts his need for "independance and adult trust" as we are now getting him ready for either a gap year or Freshman year.

We are fairly confident that he can handle night driving, motorway driving and winter driving safely.

If you have any doubts as to calibre of some of our young .... look up posts by MikeF (who is doubtlessly engaged in Freshman Year and getting to know girlies )

Came across to me as another "natural driver" on aggregate....and one who is willing to continue learning....and we need to get the majority to aspire to this current minority.

With the short daylight hours in winter in the UK this would make it impossible for newly qualified drivers to drive to and from work.

People have proposed various restrictive solutions to driver training, but in my view the key thing that needs to be done is to make completing the Pass Plus course compulsory within two years of passing the basic test.

The problem, of course, is that too many new drivers seem to forget everything they've learned as soon as they pass the L-test.

Yes, the precise speed limit compliance is a bind, but everything else is highly worthwhile.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Somehow my browser did not pick up that there were replies to this thread and I have therefore not noticed them. Apologies for the late replies.

The major problem, as I see it, is that with such a large percentage of the road toll being made up of young drivers, and their passengers, something needs to be done to educate them on the risks. The majority of young drivers will not attend a driving course of any type other than the minimum amount of training required to get their license.

My proposal for "daylight" driving was only an indicative time frame, with the intent that young drivers not be allowed on the road at night, with their mates egging them on, until they have attended a course. A more realistic timeframe might be 6am to 6pm or something like that.

Over here a car control course is done in a large car park and 90% of the course is done at 35mph or less with the only exception being the emergency brake training which might reach speeds of 50mph. An advanced driving course takes the driver onto a closed road or race track to teach them how to handle a vehicle at higher speed. I support advanced driving courses and I believe they empower the driver with a much higher skill set but the problem with them is the perception that they will encourage young drivers to drive faster. I believe that in some cases this might be true but I do not believe it to be true of a "car control" course and the perception of making safer drivers would be more readily accepted by the public.

I have thought more about this proposal and have discussed it with many friends and the general consensus is that it has a good foundation. I have modified the overall proposal slightly by suggesting that the government pay 50% of the course fee for any driver in their first 3 years of driving. I do not advocate a free course because most people perceive that anything free is either not very good or is dodgy and by making the driver pay some of the cost they are more likely to take it seriously. The cost to the government should be offset by the reduction in costs associated with a reduction in crashes for this age group.

I have already discussed the effect the course had on me but I have also spoken to many young people who have attended such a course and the majority of them had a similar experience to me.

Even if such a plan only affected 10% of young drivers who would otherwise have driven excessively fast, the road toll could be dramatically decreased for that age group.

I am considering, funds allowing, contacting several of the companies running these courses to request they contact previous attendees of their courses with a questionnaire to determine what long term effects, if any, the course had on their behaviour on the roads. If such a study showed that my hypothesis is correct then it would add weight to my proposal but my biggest problem is that, not being a researcher and having no experience with this sort of thing, I am concerned about what questions to ask and the general wording. I was hoping that other members on this forum would offer their suggestions.

There is also the problem of only contacted people who have completed the course and so I plan to provide a pre-course questionnaire and then follow-up with a post questionnaire 2-3 months after the course has completed.

Pre course question ideas:

Please list in order of priority the most important features of a car to you:

a. Shock Absorbers/Springs
b. Lots of Power
c. Mag wheels
d. Lowered Suspension
e. Good Tyres
f. Good Brakes
g. ABS
h. Steering
i. Fully sick Stereo/sound system

How fast do you think 35mph is in a suburban side street?
a. extremely Fast
b. fast
c. average
d. slow
e. I can walk faster

How many metres does it take to stop from 30mph?
a. not far
b. a long way
c. depends on the road surface
d. too many factors to be sure
e. who cares?

Is the car you drive?
a. owned by you
b. owned by your parents
c. a company car
d. owned by a friend
e. stolen

What is the purpose of ABS?
a. to give a foot massage
b. make the car stop faster
c. allow you to steer while braking
d. b & c

Why are you doing the course?
a. parents made me come
b. I want to learn more about cars
c. ordered to by the courts
d. came with a friend
e. I want to be a safer driver

What’s the chance that they will be able to teach you something you don’t already know?
a. no way
b. maybe, but not likely
c. I hope so because I’m paying for it
d. probably
e. I’m sure they will


This is just a start but I want to make it fun, without seeming trivial, and I do not want to skew the results by asking the wrong questions. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

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Ross

Yes I'm a hoon, but only on the track!!!!

I believe if they get 6 points or more in their 1st year, they get an instant ban and have to take the test again. Being done for drinking and driving would give them an instant ban anyway and maybe a prison sentence, dependant on the time of year

This does not go far enough, they should restrict power to at least a 100 BHP for the 1st year.


The plate would be valid for 1 year, after which time you become unlicensed unless you attend a registered car control course.

Advanced courses at present are not worth the certificate as they are not completed by VOSA.

Until we get VOSA advanced test, they are pointless.





What

60 kmh is not fast, you were clearly on the wrong course.




What percentage would apply what they learnt, i very much doubt it would be 100% of your 50% figure

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Steve

Even if 10% of the attendees actually changed their driving style to be more careful and attentive the saving in lives would be significant.

As for 35mph, I still say that it is extremely fast. The context was an emergency stop/avoid manouver and what it taught me was that even at what seems a slow speed things happen REALLY fast.

On the highway 35mph is extremely slow, but in a built up area with potential hazards everywhere, it's extremely fast. Most of the young deaths over here occur in built-up areas and if these young drivers can be taught just how fast things happen, even at 35mph, it may slow them down and as a direct result reduce the number of crashes and deaths.

We do have a power/weight limit on "P" plate drivers but I agree with the REALLY low power on 1st year drivers until they attend a course.

Same deal on points here, 5 points in the first 3 years and 3 month ban on driving but we do have a graduated points system so you could have 5 fines at less than 10kph over the limit.

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Ross

Yes I'm a hoon, but only on the track!!!!

There is a two year probationary period for new drivers in the UK. If they accumulate 6 points in first two years of driving from date of passing driving test ... they have to take both written and practical driving test again. If they pass their test.... their new licence is re-issued ... but still has the 6 points which are remain on the licence for 4 years before you can apply to have them removed. Cost of new licence (with no points showing on counterfoil) is then ca £20 or so... I understand.....

I understand - from the relatives -that France has increased to probationary period to 3 years, and that Germany intends to follow this initiative.

Drink driving would carry same ban as as experienced driver ... but courts do tend to order very tough retest for a probationer before licence can be re-applied for after serving ban.

Prison sentence would depend on what we actually charge him/her with. Perhaps even the amount of alcohol we actually detect in the blood. But depends on courts....



We have said on numerous occasions that Pass Plus should be made compulsory part of qualifying as a driver. At present it is optional ... but must be completed with 12 months (off memory) of passing L-test...

Current Advanced Driver tests are demanding..... but we should try to encourage more to take this....






In built up area ... 37.5 mph is quite fast....



Evidence of the Driver Improvement Schemes reveals that drivers have benefited. This Scheme is offered to drivers by police after minor collisions which involved police presence and as alternative to a prosecution for unde care/careless driving, by certain forces on patrols, by courts (following a reduced ban on condition of course attendance) ..

Ross

We thought of motivators on the Driver Improvement Forum... whereby we debated graded assessments with lowered insurance premium being a possible carrot and remedial training and retest given to numpties. Lot of very good ideas were chewed over...

Cost of assessment would be down to driver ... but offset by lowered insurance costs.... on basis that driving is a prvilege and we all pay for lessons and L-test in first place.

However, the conumdrum is how to encourage a willingness to carry on learning ... we can do it by force (tighten up L/test, introduce assessments and offer Driver Improvements and Speed Awares to offending drivers )

At moment the Pass Plus is optional and lot of youngsters find it an expensive after passing test. Lot of new drivers in Durham are students at the university here. They find cost of Pass Plus an unnecessary extra expense after passing the L/test


This would be same in other University towns as well.

Perhaps subsidising this would be step in right direction .. but here I fear the money would be paid for by speeding fines Though .. perhaps better to pay for improving young drivers than investing in yet more scameras?????

Oops ..!

Prison sentence would depend on what we actually charge him/her with. Perhaps even the amount of alcohol we actually detect in the blood. But depends on courts....




Only if they introduce a pass plus test which is completed by VOSA, otherwise it is a waste of time.



Advanced tests are run for profit, they are not controlled by VOSA, they are no more than a go cart test certificate.





37.5 mph is not fast, however a built up area may demand a free speed of 15 mph, it all depends on hazard perception



What evidence, source please

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Steve

Well... I certainly feel happier knowing my son has completed this test. We have a skid pan/brakes session planned this weekend.

I feel happier knowing he has completed these and achieved an independent assessment of his skills.

Of course, I feel very comfortable when he is driving me, my wife and younger children.... but am also even more comfrotable knowing that a complete stranger feels the same way about his driving skills.



Perhaps ... but again .... you still have to demonstrate a high level of skill to pass it. Again ... my lad is considering this - and I admit I will sleep better knowing he has completed this training.


It does improve observation and hazard perception ...but agree should perhaps we need a national A level in driving

In any case .. what's wrong with go-carting ? My kids love it!



No... not fast.... but depends on circumstances of road.... would drive below 30 mph near school or park, and ease off near a pub....or factory at clocking -out time...... And you would take steady slowish pace past line of parked cars of course ...



Think they have been discussing this on UK Speed Trap Bible.... some bloke went on one and was very positive about it.....

Think Met/Lancs web sites have some data on these ..... seem to recall reading about this in "Autocar" a couple of months ago as well.....

But you come across as anti-further training, mate.....Or very sceptical about it.....


Surely any kind of training initiative is preferable to speed cams all over the place?

Why is it a waste of time? What is so magic about VOSA anyway?


Both the IAM and RoSPA are registered charities so are not carrying out the activity for profit. Yes, the standards may vary, but these bodies do take seriously the need to ensure a common approach and a high standard of examiners, and I'm sure pretty much every driver who's taken one has significantly benefited from it.

Both of these tests are also validated by the DSA as approved advanced driving tests.

Many very highly regarded qualifications (such as chartered accountancy) are administered by self-regulating bodies. This does not necessarily invalidate them - a lot of the standing of a qualification derives from the respect in which it is held.

Equally, many government-assessed qualifications (such as degrees in Hairdressing Studies from Mugford "University") are not worth the paper they are printed on.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Many of the problems with new drivers comes down to a sense of their own invulnerability. They feel that they have passed the test and can do anything and everything with skill.

There needs to be more awareness training for new drivers, whatever their age. They need to be made aware of potential problems and hazards.

The testing proceedure here has got better since I took mine 20 years ago but still lacks in crucial areas. Bend assessment is not properly taught amongst other things - how can we blame the new driver that has gone off the road if they weren't taught the best way to judge the correct SAFE speed for the bend?

There are many things that can be done - probationary periods, restricted engine sizes and incentives for taking post test courses. Much of this would not cost anything and the post test courses could and should be funded by central government. Anything to reduce the number of casualties amongst new drivers.

Rich