Safe Speed Forums

The campaign for genuine road safety
It is currently Mon Feb 02, 2026 09:57

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 13:12 
Offline
New User
New User

Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 10:43
Posts: 4
I saw this on the BBC 10pm news last night. Apparently these fires in Borneo are producing 20x more CO2 than the total of all UK emissions per year.

It really makes a mockery of the UK's "tax you till you squeak" philosophy. If Ken really wants to make a difference he should send a bunch of firefighters to Borneo rather than taxing people who have the temerity to drive the car of their choice into London.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/help/3681938.stm


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 13:32 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
This is a non-story. Any CO2 released from burning forests is 'new' CO2, fixed by plants from the atmosphere in recent times.

The CO2 from fossil fuels is 'old' CO2 that hasn't been in the atmosphere for millions of years.

Forest fires are also part of a 'natural cycle'.

Not that I'm sticking up for AGW... But we do need better arguments than this.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 13:47 
Offline
New User
New User

Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 10:43
Posts: 4
Darn - fair enough. Thought they said it was peat burning which was many years old, hence the higher CO2 content.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 16:05 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member

Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 09:13
Posts: 771
What difference does it make if it's "old" or "new" CO2?

_________________
Wake me up when the revolution starts
STOP the Toll Tax http://www.traveltax.org.uk


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 16:49 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 14:00
Posts: 1271
Location: Near Telford, UK / Barcelona, Spain
Graeme wrote:
What difference does it make if it's "old" or "new" CO2?

"New CO2" is a bit like the water vapour "cycle"... Water gets into the atmosphere for a while then precipitates as rain, keeping the level of water vapour fairly constant. New CO2 does the same but over a much longer cycle, ie the time it takes for a tree / bush / plant to grow, die and rot down or burn... But it doesn't work like that for "old" CO2, which because it's effectively been sequestered in coal, oil etc, is out of circulation, and when it's released back into the atmosphere adds to the total "burden".

_________________
"Politicians are the same the world over... We build bridges where there aren't any rivers." - Nikita Kruschev


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 16:56 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
Graeme wrote:
What difference does it make if it's "old" or "new" CO2?


Nothing involving 'new' CO2 will lead to a change in atmospheric concentration. The 'new' CO2 is already 'in circulation'.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 18:24 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member

Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 09:13
Posts: 771
I get part of that - ie we have huge CO2 stored underground in the form of fossil fuel which when we use it can't go back "into storage" therefore stays in the atmosphere? Whereas the "new" CO2 is continually cycling anyway?

But.. if we reduce the "storage" for "new" CO2 eg by not re-growing the burnt forest then surely it does affect the atmospheric concentration?

_________________
Wake me up when the revolution starts
STOP the Toll Tax http://www.traveltax.org.uk


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 18:54 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 14:00
Posts: 1271
Location: Near Telford, UK / Barcelona, Spain
Graeme wrote:
But.. if we reduce the "storage" for "new" CO2 eg by not re-growing the burnt forest then surely it does affect the atmospheric concentration?

That's true, sort of... But the CO2 was taken from the atmosphere by the growing forest in the first place, so it's only restoring the status quo ante. However, not regrowing the biomass will leave the atmospheric level higher than it "should be". IIRC it's suggested that deforestation is contributing more of the increase in CO2 than all the world's motorised transport.

_________________
"Politicians are the same the world over... We build bridges where there aren't any rivers." - Nikita Kruschev


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 19:27 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 00:24
Posts: 2400
Location: Kendal, Cumbria
SafeSpeed wrote:
This is a non-story. Any CO2 released from burning forests is 'new' CO2, fixed by plants from the atmosphere in recent times.

The CO2 from fossil fuels is 'old' CO2 that hasn't been in the atmosphere for millions of years.

Forest fires are also part of a 'natural cycle'.

Not that I'm sticking up for AGW... But we do need better arguments than this.

But a couple of valid points nonetheless arise...

1. Planting trees for so called "carbon balancing" is bollocks if the trees subsequently get burned, cycling the "saved" CO2 back into the atmosphere.

2. Alternatively, reducing the amount of timber currently burned would be a perfectly valid "carbon reducing" measure, if doing so led to the trees eventually decaying.

For example, if we were to do as Tobers suggests, and send a team over there, and if (say) by cutting firebreaks they were able to reduce the annual forest burn by 5% then that would be the entire UK carbon emissions balanced in one fell swoop. Job done. No need for any more "green taxes" please Mr Blair/Brown...

[edited to add brainstorm moment]
In fact, paradoxically, one cracking way to fix stacks of carbon would be to simply go and cut down the trees, so they decay and fix carbon, rather than burning and releasing it. New trees then grow to replace them and so on.

"Save the Earth - saw a tree down today!!!"

_________________
CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 20:18 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 13:36
Posts: 1339
JT wrote:
In fact, paradoxically, one cracking way to fix stacks of carbon would be to simply go and cut down the trees, so they decay and fix carbon, rather than burning and releasing it. New trees then grow to replace them and so on.


I'm not sure it would work as when plant matter decays most of the carbon is released into the atmosphere. Only whatever becomes fossilised as coal or oil reamins locked away.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 20:37 
Offline
Member
Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 09:16
Posts: 3655
SafeSpeed wrote:
This is a non-story. Any CO2 released from burning forests is 'new' CO2, fixed by plants from the atmosphere in recent times.



How about this one then..
http://www.monitor.net/monitor/0211a/rainfire2.html

Quote:
Wildfires that scorched parts of Indonesia in 1997 spewed as much carbon into the atmosphere as the entire planet's biosphere removes from it in a year, shows new research published this week. The fires, which destroyed thousands of forest acres and left peat bogs smoldering for months, released as much as 2.6 billion metric tons of carbon -- mostly in the form of the greenhouse gas carbon dioxide (CO2) -- into the atmosphere.
A team of scientists led by Susan Page from the University of Leicester in the United Kingdom attempted to estimate the mount of carbon released by the 1997 fires, and their potential effects on global warming. In an article published in the November 7 issue of the journal "Nature," the researchers conclude that these fires were "a major contributor to the sharp increase in atmospheric CO2 concentrations detected in 1998."

Fire on Mt. Suharto, Borneo, March 1998
From 1997 to 1998, the growth rate of CO2 in the atmosphere nearly doubled, from an average of 3.2 gigatons per calendar year to 6.0 gigatonnes, the highest value on record


The Indonesian wildfires show that attempts to slow the rate of global warming will have to focus not only on reducing direct human caused carbon emissions from factories, power plants and vehicle tailpipes, but also on efforts to stem the unsustainable destruction of massive carbon stores such as those found in tropical forests and peat bogs.

If tropical peat forests continue to be destroyed by logging, development and fire, "there will be a continued release of carbon through decomposition of the exposed peat surfaces that, in turn, will place this large carbon store at further risk," write Page and her colleagues. "Tropical peatlands will make a significant contribution to global carbon emissions for some time to come unless major mitigation, restoration and rehabilitation programs are undertaken."




_________________
Speed camera policy Kills


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 22:14 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member

Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 23:42
Posts: 200
Location: Milton Keynes
CO2 emissions from fossil fuel consumption are miniscule compared to the amount of CO2 that is churning around due to natural causes, and there's no good scientific reason to expect it to have a significant impact on atmospheric CO2 levels, and there's no good scientific reason to expect that any (natural or man-made) variations in atmospheric CO2 will have a significant impact on global temperatures.

The only thing we can say with any certainty is that global temperatures are going to change. Trying to prevent that by reducing our own CO2 production will devastate our economy to no purpose.

_________________
Peter Humphries (and a green V8S)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:33 
Offline
Member
Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 09:16
Posts: 3655
Found this web site...
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/env_co2_emi_percap-environment-co2-emissions-per-capita

Even though the Dutch are considered to be "geener" than we are their emissions are 10% higher per head of population. Even Ireland is higher than us.....so whats the problem ?

_________________
Speed camera policy Kills


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:37 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 00:04
Posts: 2311
Gizmo wrote:
Even though the Dutch are considered to be "geener" than we are their emissions are 10% higher per head of population.

although those statistics are a little misleading (how surprising) as it doesn't take into account how much of the co2 production is for export - ie if I buy all my goods from China then my personal c02 for production is nil but China's will be nice and high.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:41 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member

Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 09:13
Posts: 771
So if we cut down all the rainforests & dumped it all at sea, then let them grow again... we could all have 4x4s !!!

_________________
Wake me up when the revolution starts
STOP the Toll Tax http://www.traveltax.org.uk


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:53 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 00:24
Posts: 2400
Location: Kendal, Cumbria
Graeme wrote:
So if we cut down all the rainforests & dumped it all at sea, then let them grow again... we could all have 4x4s !!!

What you'd have is a raft! :hehe:

But in principle I can't see what's wrong with the idea of managing forestry in order to "farm" CO2 absorption; if TPTB consider it to be of such crucial importance...

_________________
CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 13:23 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
JT wrote:
Graeme wrote:
So if we cut down all the rainforests & dumped it all at sea, then let them grow again... we could all have 4x4s !!!

What you'd have is a raft! :hehe:

But in principle I can't see what's wrong with the idea of managing forestry in order to "farm" CO2 absorption; if TPTB consider it to be of such crucial importance...


When wood rots, is the CO2 released? Part of it? How big a part?

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 18:28 
Offline
Member
Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 09:16
Posts: 3655
SafeSpeed wrote:
When wood rots, is the CO2 released? Part of it? How big a part?


Can't be that much, otherwise you would not get coal.... :wink:

_________________
Speed camera policy Kills


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 18:41 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 13:36
Posts: 1339
Gizmo wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
When wood rots, is the CO2 released? Part of it? How big a part?


Can't be that much, otherwise you would not get coal.... :wink:


No, all that means is that it can't be all of it. How much coal do you think there is, relative to the total mass of all plants that have lived in the last 300 million years.

Most of it is going to be released eventually, but it could take a variable amount of time. So there may be something in the idea of locking away carbon in wood if it is stored in the right conditions. It wouldn't permenantly lock away the same carbon, but if it was continuously done it would be a help.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 19:12 
Offline
User

Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 16:24
Posts: 322
I think the main point of the post is that the UK could go crazy and one day not release any carbon dioxide (impossible scenario), but on a global scale this would do f-all.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.101s | 12 Queries | GZIP : Off ]