FREE PUBLIC TRANSPORT. (Your views invited).

[Mr Angry]

Hello people,

As I am sure Paul will vouch, I am definately a "Safe-Speeder" through and through. I certainly don't want to give my car up or suck up to any of the nannying 'what's good for us' rubbish - but I have been thinking...

This is a not completely thought through idea which I have been considering, and I wonder whether we could put it forward as an SS policy or not. Comments and reasoning are welcome!

The idea:

Make ALL public transport FREE to the end user at the point of use (subject to a few conditions).

The first condition would be that the user MUST have a travel card issued by their own local authority. The travel card would be of a standard agreed across the country (and so work everywhere whether that be bus, train or tram, etc). Having the card and using it at the barrier / card reading point would always give the holder FREE travel anywhere in the country *provided the traveller had the card in their possession at the time of travel.

The first benefit from doing this would be: No more excuses, so called unnecessary car journeys which could be completed by public transport would go on public transport!!!! Deficiencies in the PT system would soon come to light with people moaning that they want to get from This A to That B and it just ain't possible!

Our trains and busses would actually be used during the daytime too and capacities for the morning and evening rush would need to be addressed.

Ask yourself the question: Would you drive from Newcastle to London if the train was FREE? Would you drive from Putney into the city if the Underground or bus was FREE? Some would but most wouldn't and the net result is our roads would empty somewhat.

Wouldn't this make the 'Green' movement reach climax often? All these cars off the roads, voluntarily??

Now I said earlier FREE transport with a card. Probably a simple photo cum id card (no, not biometrics and other deep privacy abuses - just a simple id card).

With the ID of each user being known PLANNING for future infrastructure could take place. Yes, people could use someone else's card at the gate - but if a 'fine' was set at a deterrent level, considering all travel would be FREE in any case with one's own card - why travel without one?

No card = you pay! No more 'free lunches' (with the greatest of respects) to our foreign visitors. Why, for example, should the rest of us have to pay for John Doe to fly into Heathrow and travel into London and beyond... No, John Doe pays the right fee to use the service (He doesn't necessarily have to pay the standard £200 each way to Newcastle, I might add - because this would bring the bent / forged cards into play).

Also to our own people: No card = you pay!

The cost of doing this (providing the FREE travel) could be bourne equally by the treasury and local borough/CCouncil of the resident with the card.

Yes, it might put your taxes up a bit (say a couple of hundred quid a year?) But a FREE train journey with the family when going on holiday twice a year??? Emptier roads where our kids play??? Sucking up to the Greens... Less emissions overall???

Even if this wouldn't get you out of your car at all; if it made the roads emptier for you to exercise that choice to travel by car, would it be worth paying the 'levy'?

Could my idea work or not? Can it be improved? And if deemed suitable, can it be added to the SafeSpeed manifesto?

[Steve]

A free public transport system is a wonderful concept, but is it at all possible with the privatised system we have? Our trains/buses barely copes with today’s number of passengers, a significant overhaul would be needed for it to cope with any migration from private transport; I suspect taxes may rise mare than a couple of hundred quid to fund all this. Even if public transport was made free, I reckon our government would still tend towards national congestion charging

One of our company’s factories was recently moved from London to the CZ republic. Over there the state provides a free… FREE minibus service for many employees to the industrial estate – it gets used! Such initiatives (and a lack of regulation) make these low cost countries even more competitive than ours.

[malcolmw]

Consider all the costs of card checking and charging "foreigners". Why not just make it free access and ditch all the charging mechanism and its costs?

Hey, I sound like i'm talking about road pricing.

The main problems with "free at the point of use" are that no-one has any incentive to look after the assets and that abuse soon sets in (a'la NHS). The costs then spiral out of control.

[greenv8s]

Before you pursuade me that public transport should be used in preference to private transport, you have to show that it is more economical, more convenient, or better for the environment in some way, or some other similar advantage. Do you believe it provides any of those advantages? I'm not at all convinced. The main advantage I see is that it provides cheap mobility for people who don't have access to private transport.

[Rewolf]

I think that perhaps this should be in brainstorming.

However there are some points to note:

London is partially implementing this idea, by having a fare differential - if you have an Oyster card, then your fares have been frozen, if you don't then prices are rising rapidly.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/content/articles/2005/10/04/bus_tube_fares_feature.shtml

So what is the Oyster Card? Well obviously it is a "Smart Card" (RFID tag) that takes the money off you as you complete journeys (within a limited area - see the complaints in the above link). To get one you need absolute proof of identity, because that is already a demand just to get the basic Photo ID, which is already compulsory in order to get a simple Weekly Travel card. Visitors to London area already hammered for using public transport, because unless they carry their passport, a few utility bills and have two additional passport photos etc, they cannot get the photo-card.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tickets/oyster/general.asp

So having been proved a "success", it is most likely that the Oyster Card concept will be rolled out rather than coming up with a new idea. However, as the terms "Smart Card" and "proof of identity" imply, and following the detail of how Oyster charging works, you discover that TfL are tracking every journey that the Oyster Card User makes. Big Brother IS watching you if you want to save money. With Oyster working so well, why would they slip back to a simple Photo card?

The possibility of free public transport actually happening is zero. Absolute zero in fact - so damn cold that nothing at all moves. There might be a price differential (as with Oyster). but free? No.

Now it might surprise you, but even when I lived on the outskirts of London (25 years ago), nobody chose to drive from Putney (or in my case Kingston) into the City unless they absolutely had too. And I did once because I was playing in a band, and we had a gig in the Rock Garden in Covent Garden - for some reason the idea of trying to take £3000 of kit consisting of 2 hard-cased guitars, amp/effects rack, 2 speaker cabs, mikes, mike stands and guitar stands on public transport wasn't exactly practical - never mind the possibility of theft (which was a strong possibility), the bulk and weight made it impossible. But even then it wasn't easy with non-existant parking, and unloading involved a 100yrd carry.

But I do know people that do drive into London - a relative of mine is involved at senior management/director level in a number of companies based in central London, and he lives in a very nice house out in the country, and he drives in every day. Parking isn't a problem because the offices include very limited parking spaces which he could obviously use, and almost no level of charging would prevent him driving. Free travel would make absolutely no difference to him, although he does use the train if he plans on having a few drinks.

What I am trying to say is that for London the price differential between public transport and road use is already heavily biased towards public transport, and that for anybody that has the option, Public transport is already the mode of travel of choice, and the rest are simply not influenced by price - even if you paid them to use Public Transport they wouldn't.

Not that public transport actually has the necessary capacity to carry the people at times of peak demand - which is why prices are actually increasing, not going down with higher usage.

For those further out without the decent public transport - i.e. anybody not actually living in London or a few select city centres, then they have no choice at all. Many people live in areas with zero buses, or nominal once a day services which for some reason never coincide with possible demand.

Would free fares (and detailed tracking of my movements) make me use public transport?

No. For the simple reason that even in my moderately well covered area it still isn't practical. Public transport is fine if you are carrying nothing, or at most just the quantity that a person can comfortanbly carry. If I need something small, then I walk to the nearest shop, otherwise we economise on the journey by buying as much as we can in a single trip, and typically stuff the boot full. I cannot replace that trip with public transport.

Could I use public transport for leisure?

Again No. It doesn't matter how much it costs - I now play golf, and never mind the fact that public transport doesn't go to the Golf course, but the equipment is again too bulky and heavy.

Would I use it for holidays?

Absolutely not! Are you crazy? We have a toddler that still sleeps in a cot. Even a simple 2 night stay with the grandparents involves taking: folding travel cot & mattress, food, drink, toys, clothes, changing mat, nappies, pushchair, and a few bits for us. It is a stuffed boot full, and given that one person would have to be holding the child, this leaves a single person struggling with twice their volume of stuff to move.


In conclusion, what you are suggesting is that the rural people, others with minimal public transport links, families and anybody else that needs to move more than a simple bag of stuff with them, should pay a lot of money to subsidise those without any such restrictions. It isn't price that stops most people using public transport, it is the practicality.

[jamie_duff]

It isn't price that stops most people using public transport, it is the practicality.

That does it for me ..............

[anton]

My wife and I are entitled to free bus travel due to her disabillities.
We havent taken it up.
Reasons: busses do not go to our work destinations at 07.30am
I can't carry all our shopping home by bus.
I can't buy a 40" widescreen by bus
or a fence panel or a few bags of compost
I can't change my plans on a whim.
The car is clean warm dry, reliable and has aircon.
I don't have to dress foor the next 8 hours weather.
I don't drink, it is one of the things I work for.
I only have to share my car with people I choose to.
The driver of my car has a good safety record.

[Ziltro]

Perth and Freemantle CAT seems to work quite well. (free city centre bus service, maximum 15 minutes between busses)
Live CAT busses (note time difference )

And you don't have to have a tracking ID card!

I don't know how an entire country worth of free public transport would work though.
It would be nice, but the route I take to work (and there isn't another way) never seems to have busses on it, and the railway station is 20 minutes walk either end.

The train from Poole is fine if you want to go to Southampton or London. But that's about it. Anywhere else and you have to go a very long way round, like Poole > Southampton > Bristol...

[Badgerman]

Hmmm, nice Utopian idea in theory.

Why would the ID/Travelcard thing be necessary if it's free for everyone?

[PeterE]

If PT was free at the point of use any incentive to improve standards would be removed.

[botach]

Anton wrote "The driver of my car has a good safety record."


Perhaps one very good reason to travel by car

[Mole]

Could the country afford it?

Not only would it cost a lot of money but the government would LOOSE a lot through lack of road revenue.

Also, in my particular case, there isn't any public transport that I could use. I'm out in the sticks (although 100 years ago there was a station less than half a mile from my house from which one could catch a direct train to London!)

[Lum]

Ask yourself the question: Would you drive from Newcastle to London if the train was FREE? Would you drive from Putney into the city if the Underground or bus was FREE? Some would but most wouldn't and the net result is our roads would empty somewhat.

Yes. If I am actually going into Central London then chances are it's for something serious and I wont necessarilly be finished when the public transport shuts down at midnight.

[Roger]

.. and to add to the above, I'd likely take the train even if it cost substantially more if I felt it would save me queuing up for ages in the car.

Cost of a specific lourney is not my primary driver at all when it comes to choice of mode of transport.

[prof beard]

Do any Safespeeders have bus passes for being over 60?

If so how much do they use them and for what types of journey?

[sotonsteve]

I have a free bus pass, but the service is so crap I don't use it.

[I_try_to_drive_safely]

I can't see this working.

For one thing, free public transport by air would result in colossal pollution as well as further airport overcrowding. Seats might have to be booked months in advance.

Free public transport by rail would cause such conjestion on the railways, that it would drive rail freight on to the roads. Even if the railways were to be quadruple- tracked, along all the trunk routes, it would make little sense to squander such an infastructural resource on free travel for frivolous reasons.

Business rail travellers who don't mind paying might simply go by road instead in their own cars, to avoid the hassle of inter-city journeys on crowded trains.

[Cooperman]

I'm entitled to a free bus pass in view of my age(!), but I haven't bothered as the service is poor, I have 4 cars to choose from and I like to travel when I want to, not just when a bus happens along. However, if I'm going to London I usually go by train and then I choose 1st class for comfort, even though it's expensive.

[Mad Moggie]

I keep forgetting about this forum

I was going to post up these letters from the "Bolton press" in Chat -= but perhaps they are more suited to here given the topic!

How much longer Labour blame the previous governemtn for all its failures? It's 10 years since the Conservatives were in power and stil Guy Harkin blames them for the failures in public transport system.

Guy clearly longss for the 1950s and 60s when thousands worked in the city centres and Trafford Park and they all went to work in smelly cramped unreliable buses!

Hang on! My Mum tells me that "them were t'days - when you could set yer watch by the tram, train and bus!" Though she admits that the old charabang could have been less "awesome to her bones"

Well it's time to wake up the 21st century! Cars have liberated people and shaped their lives.

Yep... it took me two hours to go about three miles this evening on my way back up here.! Grrrrrr! Oh .. the relief when I came back to my beloved National Park and - er - um "made some progress!" down from Penrith direction

Still - I was warm in my car and listening to Classic FM as usual. Saw Wildy in the other lane .. and decided to be a gent and let her slide in in front of me. (Well.. You know! )

Oh yes -perhaps more liberated than the train as I'd need a couple of buses, changes and long waits on cold platforms and waiting rooms.. so ... pass! Swings and roundabouts on this one. as far as car v PT are concerned. Tickets would also cost as much as my fuel or even more than my fuel as well.

However the councillor hits a valid point in his next comment

People now live out of town and employers have also moved out of town and the two can only now be reasonably linked by private car.

So We still have the Trafford Parks - but not the buses to get to them.

Persuding people back onto public trasnport is going to be a long term project. and bus companies have taked the first steps by introducing new buses onto the popular routes. Next they need to take the services to where people actually work and thaat's the most difficult challenge of all.

Well with respect Cllr Allen - your mob did deregularise and privatise them... and when they were under the "council" - at least you knew which bus went where and - despite the bone rattling - they were at least farely cheap as I recall from student days and early junior days when I had to choose between food and petrol.

OK - so I starved sometimes !

Switzerland though. Each time I go there with Wild though. Trams and buses all interchange. You hop off one and onto the other and a Swiss lady over the intercom tells you where you are and which connecting tram or bus goes where and even which train at the station

Of course - they pay for this in their taxes.. but since you see and really benefit positively from this effects of this tax - I doubt if many Swiss complain about how their cash is spent here. Certainly impressive and room for the bike too in their trams and buses!

Swiss logic!

Back to the councillor's letter though I think Guy Harkin is the Labour fellow

In the meantime Guy Harkin is right that they system needs to be affordable, not just to the user but to the council tax payer who in Bolton is paying £12m in subsidies. That's £48 for every man, woman and child.


In 2001 census, we discovered that 8% Boltonians travelled to work by bus. If a furhter 2% used the bus during the day - that's 26,000 using the buses. Most of the buses I see between 9 and 4 pm are empty

why they want to charge more for peak ..

empty and simply polluting the atmosphere. Do the Maths and you find these 26,000 are really being subsidised by the rest of us to the tune of £480 each year.

Blimey - I'm paying that for each of my children on the school bus service each year.. and subsidising the rest for the same amount I have too many children

If that's the price of getting people on buses - OK you can argue it to be worthwhile.

But don't assume taxpayers are a bottomless pit of money ready and willing to cough up more to prop up an ailing transport system

Hmmm! Ailing because of lack of investment - but road pricing to pay for this is not the answer. You need the alternatives in place in any case - whether it's the proposed cycling networked routes to Manchester and Bury and beyond and trams and buses and trains .. as well as the cars

Perhaps we need to stagger working hours and encourage more working from home in this computerised age.

However, Swiss taxpayers pay for their system and they reckon the the cost of the tax is offset by their subsidised fares.

Perhaps gettting something of value in return for the money and being proven to give value for money ... now there's a "novel" idea

[Mad Moggie]

More letters about buses down in the big 'burb

I'm sure the residents of Church Lane and Willows Lane will agree with have the worst bus service in Bolton.

We have the 620 Arriva bus which comes down St Helens Road and misses out Willows Lane and Hulton Lane out.

Then the powers that be with First Bus decided we needed the bus which comes from Leigh and the one from the Trafford Centre. Why ????

It's rarely here on time and at least two services are missed each day. Why can't we have a local us like everywhere else in Bolton?

Because.. you have to pay for them and the Councillor says they are all empty anyway

I visit my pal in Harwood. A bus passes her front door and five buses pass by each hour with two people aboard

Hey - we can't have that! It's polluting things and what about them cyclists and the children who live on that road Buses passing the front door?

When I wait at Moor Lane bus station for our bus - ours is never there whilst the 582 and 540 to my friend's area are vying for poll position at the bus stand.

I don't think it's much to ask do you? A decent bus service when we are told to use the buses. We would if we had one!