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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 13:39 
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a ... ge_id=1770

A motorist today won a High Court test case which legal experts say should prevent drivers being convicted in future if their view of roadside speed limit signs is obscured by overhanging trees or hedges.

Businessman John Coombes was enraged when he was found guilty and fined for speeding in a 30mph zone - even though an overgrown hedge meant he could not see a roadside signpost warning of the restriction.

He described the fine - "my first speeding fine in 32 years of driving" - as highway robbery.

Today his conviction was quashed by two senior High Court judges in London who ruled that, because of an obscured sign, he had not had sufficient warning that he was passing from a 40mph zone into a 3Omph stretch.

Later his solicitor, Jeffrey Bannister, said: "This is a very important point for motorists.

"This judgment has finally confirmed what many motorists have always felt: that they should not be convicted if trees and hedges overhanging or obscuring signs mean they cannot properly see the signs, and they are not given adequate notice of changes in the speed limit."

Mr Coombes, from Wells, Somerset, was caught in a police speed trap when he exceeded 30mph on the B3139 Bath Road at Horrington near Wells while driving home from work at about 5pm on July 4 last year.

He was convicted of speeding by Mendip magistrates in January this year and fined £250 and ordered to pay £150 legal costs.

At Bristol Crown Court, both conviction and fine were upheld in a 2-1 majority decision in April, and he was ordered to pay a further £229 legal costs.

Today the High Court ordered that, having won his case, his legal costs should be reimbursed out of public funds[/b]

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 14:20 
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:clap:

Although

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Today the High Court ordered that, having won his case, his legal costs should be reimbursed out of public funds


Surely they should be paid back by the SCP who persued the original conviction?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 14:57 
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The Current Bun
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A MOTORIST today won a landmark victory against a HEDGE - after he successfully argued the offending greenery blocked his view of a road sign and caused him to speed.

Businessman John Coombes was enraged when he was found guilty and fined for speeding in a 30mph zone - even though an overgrown hedge meant he could not see a roadside signpost warning of the restriction.

He described the fine - “my first speeding fine in 32 years of driving” - as highway robbery.

Today his conviction was quashed by two senior High Court judges in London who said he did not have sufficient warning that he was passing from a 40mph zone into a 30mph stretch.

Legal experts say the test case should prevent drivers being convicted in future if their view of roadside speed limit signs is obscured by overhanging trees or hedges.

Jeffrey Bannister, Mr Coombes' solicitor, said: “This is a very important point for motorists.

“This judgment has finally confirmed what many motorists have always felt - that they should not be convicted if trees and hedges overhanging or obscuring signs mean they cannot properly see the signs, and they are not given adequate notice of changes in the speed limit.”

Mr Coombes, from Wells, Somerset, was caught in a police speed trap when he exceeded 30mph on the B3139 at Horrington, near Wells, while driving home from work on July 4 last year.

He was convicted of speeding by Mendip magistrates in January this year and fined £250 and ordered to pay £150 legal costs.

Mr Coombes lost a fight at Bristol Crown Court in April after the conviction and fine were upheld and he was ordered to pay a further £229 legal costs.

Today the High Court ordered that his legal costs should be refunded out of public funds.

note the feed back/comment on this story option

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 16:07 
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Graeme wrote:
You would think that was common sense and that when it arose the SCP would say "fair enough" and go out with some hedge clippers, rather that all the expense that this has incurred.

But no, there seems to be a determination to "get" anyone they possibly can.


I put this on the other thread before I saw this one.

What on earth has happened to common sense?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 16:21 
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Graeme wrote:
What on earth has happened to common sense?


It’s becoming obvious there isn’t any anymore. Just think how much money this case has cost the taxpayer. What gets me is that these cases always end up in a high court before anyone sees sense. It makes you wonder what kind of people we employ in the lower courts.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 16:33 
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Interesting comment follows on the article -"But no they waste public money to pursue every motorist that they can. And they claim it's about safety? haha" -


But why did the judge order repayment of costs out of public funds -surely it would have been more appropriate to order the SCP to foot the bill. OH-still public funds, but less for them to have.Now they have a win win situation - if they do something like this again - it's not going to cost them(win or lose), whereas Joe Public has got to gamble on winning.So much for British Justice .


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 16:42 
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Safe Speed issued the following PR at 14:10 this afternoon:

PR424: Signs must be visible, High Court rules

news: for immediate release

The High Court has ruled today that people cannot be convicted of exceeding a
speed limit if the signs cannot be seen.

Commenting on the ruling, Paul Smith, founder of the Safe Speed road safety
campaign (www.safespeed.org.uk) said: "This is a clear victory for common
sense. People cannot be expected to respond to invisible signs."

"The authorities must ensure that their signs meet all the regulations and are
not obscured."

"It's extremely hard to understand what was going on in the lower courts."

<ends>

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 16:51 
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botach wrote:
But why did the judge order repayment of costs out of public funds


Maybe the judge knew that if he ordered the costs to be paid came out of SCP funds, they would only go out and catch a few more speeding motorist to make up the short fall.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 17:02 
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[quote="Dixie

Maybe the judge knew that if he ordered the costs to be paid came out of SCP funds, they would only go out and catch a few more speeding motorist to make up the short fall.[/quote]

Had thought of that - but at least when the accounts are published next -the true cost of their "RCMP" policy ( always get their man) might become public and show the true waste.This way it probably will get covered up.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 17:42 
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The full judgement will be very interesting, it may well provide some good ammunition to use in other cases where signage is obscured/defective.

Gareth


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 18:45 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
Safe Speed issued the following PR at 14:10 this afternoon:

PR424: Signs must be visible, High Court rules

news: for immediate release

The High Court has ruled today that people cannot be convicted of exceeding a
speed limit if the signs cannot be seen.

Commenting on the ruling, Paul Smith, founder of the Safe Speed road safety
campaign (www.safespeed.org.uk) said: "This is a clear victory for common
sense. People cannot be expected to respond to invisible signs."

"The authorities must ensure that their signs meet all the regulations and are
not obscured."

"It's extremely hard to understand what was going on in the lower courts."

<ends>



SS - Can you provide me with any further useful links to this case? I might well be able to use it in my own defence when (if) my own speeding case comes to Court. I've already printed off the BBC story.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 19:01 
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DieselMoment wrote:
SS - Can you provide me with any further useful links to this case? I might well be able to use it in my own defence when (if) my own speeding case comes to Court. I've already printed off the BBC story.


Not presently. Tomorrow's papers should have quite a bit, and I expect someone will post the full written judgment in time (it's often not available for a month).

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 21:18 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
"It's extremely hard to understand what was going on in the lower courts."



Of course it wouldn't have anything to do with the magistrates courts being part of the partnerships.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 21:59 
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Homer wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
"It's extremely hard to understand what was going on in the lower courts."



Of course it wouldn't have anything to do with the magistrates courts being part of the partnerships.


Never could see the reasoning---
Politician got vested interest - must declare it and not take any part in anything to do with it.
Magistrates - declared it as part of partnership - how come they can still take part or declare impartiality??(and accept cash)


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 22:08 
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anton wrote:
He was convicted of speeding by Mendip magistrates in January this year and fined £250 and ordered to pay £150 legal costs.

I'm obviously missing something here. The limit went down from 40 to 30. So if he was travelling at a speed that was legal in a 40, why on earth was he fined £250 plus £150 costs?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 23:13 
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They are magistraites, that is what they do.
A truck driver was caught for 47 in a 40 and got around £300 fine and £200 costs for daring to challange the system. (there were rules broken and contradictory speed readings 1 second apart)

The stronger your defence, the bigger the fudge, the bigger the fine if it goes wrong.

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 01:52 
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BBC News; http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/somerset/6197011.stm


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 06:35 
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Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... fine21.xml


Times: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 59,00.html
Quote:
At a recent hearing that led to the High Court ruling, photographs were produced showing that it was impossible to see the nearside 30mph sign.

Kerry Barker, appearing for the Director of Public Prosecutions, argued that the conviction was unassailable because the signs themselves were perfectly valid under the 1984 Road Traffic Act.

"Only one sign has to be seen for there to be a lawful conviction," he told the judges.

But Mr Justice Walker said it was "impossible to do anything other than conclude" that Mr Coombes had not had sufficient warning of the change in speed limit. Lord Justice Keene, who had acknowledged earlier that the case might be "of importance to a wider audience than those in court", agreed.

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 14:38 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
DieselMoment wrote:
SS - Can you provide me with any further useful links to this case? I might well be able to use it in my own defence when (if) my own speeding case comes to Court. I've already printed off the BBC story.


Not presently. Tomorrow's papers should have quite a bit, and I expect someone will post the full written judgment in time (it's often not available for a month).


Got it, thanks. :) Two copies printed off for use in my court case, if it ever makes court.


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